Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 21st, 2022

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for your testimony.

I am moved by the fact that we had earlier testimony talking about the urgent need for this legislation to be put in place. We have seen other countries, like Germany and France, move on this. However, I also recognize, when the witnesses say that if we don't get this right it could cause more harm than good, that, in fact, it is imperative that we get this right.

Because of that, I'm going to take a moment, as well, to give notice of a motion:

That pursuant to Standing Order 97.1, the committee request an extension of thirty sitting days to consider Bill S-211, An Act to enact the Fighting Against Forced Labour and Child Labour in Supply Chains Act and to amend the Customs Tariff.

I will tell you that I would like to have the minister join us here. I'd like to hear from the government. I would like to give all parties, particularly parties that have not yet put any witnesses on the witness list, the opportunity to do that.

I would also like to hear the words.... You talked, Ms. Dwyer, about the need to listen to impacted communities. I would like to take a moment to ask Ms. Akter if she would like to share the impact that this has had on her and her community.

[Kalpona Akter, Director, Bangladesh Center for Workers Solidarity, Canadian Network on Corporate Accountability]

If I may, with permission from the chair and with all due respect, what I understand is that this is a bill for supply chain people. You are the champions for the bill. You know what to do with that.

What I can say is how workers are living today. What they want is any kind of bill that is taken by a country like Canada, countries in Europe or the U.S.

The workers are earning $78 a month. I really want you to know what you are talking about with forced labour...in your eyes, what forced labour is.

I was in the factory. Before me, my mom went to the factory. She had to leave the factory because she had a two-month-old infant at home, so she had to send me and my brother, rather than work herself. The two of us were the breadwinners for the seven of us in the family. The whole reason for us to go to the factory was because my mom was not paid a living wage. I don't see that anywhere.

Child labour will not be eliminated. Forced labour will not be eliminated from any supply chain if the parents don't get a living wage, if the parents don't have freedom of association on their production floor or in their factories where they are working, and if other labour aspects that are supposed to be respected are not respected.

It is so difficult for a woman to live with the little money she is getting today, let alone if she has two children in the family. She is toiling every day of her life in these factories. She thinks there will be some changes in the sourcing country and that their legislation will make some difference in our lives. However, what I can see from the discussion that you are having is very minimal.

Yes, we are looking at the European Union due diligence law. The directive they just proposed includes a living wage. It includes freedom of association. It includes health and safety. It includes the elimination of forced labour. It includes human rights.

I think you are talking about one of the elements of it. My feeling is that Canada can do it way better.

To give an example, many of you may know Bangladesh for Rana Plaza. Rana Plaza was a factory that collapsed with 5,000 workers inside. That was nine years ago. A binding agreement has made a huge difference back home. Now, over 2.2 million workers are working in safe factories because we have the Accord for Fire and Building Safety in Bangladesh. The beauty of this is that it is a binding agreement.

For every law, if you cannot bring these corporations to account under any mandatory act, there will be no difference made down the supply chain.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. Akter.

We now go to the second round.

We only have four members who can ask a question. For this round it is two minutes, with the exception, of course, of Mr. Bergeron and Ms. McPherson. The first slot goes to Mr. Chong.

You have two minutes, sir.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not going to ask a question, because I simply don't have enough time. I'm just going to make a comment for the benefit of the committee.

Parliament can pass and adopt all the legislation it wants on forced labour and child labour, but if the government doesn't enforce that legislation or if it doesn't operationalize the legislation, it's all for naught.

I'd like to use Xinjiang as an example of what I'm talking about. Clearly a genocide is taking place in Xinjiang. Parliament recognized that. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said the birth rate plummeted between 2017 and 2019 by 50%, from 16 births per 1,000 people to eight births per 1,000 people.

Canada and the United States, subsequent to the USMCA, adopted legislation to ban imports using forced labour. Parliament amended the Customs Tariff act on July 1, 2020, to come into conformity with the USMCA. A year later, in June 2021, the United States changed its laws. In the two years since these laws have come into force, the United States has stopped thousands of shipments from Xinjiang from coming into the United States, but not Canada. In fact, there was a single shipment that was stopped at the border, but later released, of cotton products that had come in from the People's Republic of China.

I say all this simply to say that if there is no enforcement of the laws Parliament passes, all of this is for naught. I think the government needs to back up the legislation Parliament adopts with real action to enforce the laws of this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chong.

We now go to Mr. Zuberi.

You have less than two minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'll give the start of my time to Mr. Sheehan.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

I just wanted to inform the committee and the witnesses that Minister O'Regan wanted to be here today, but he was already scheduled for some in-person consultation with employers about the replacement workers and the anti-scab legislation. He is available on Monday for the committee.

Thank you very much.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

In the remaining time, I'd like to go to Ms. Akter in terms of what happened several years ago in a garment factory in Bangladesh. There was international attention and focus put on this.

Do you feel that when we debate and discuss this over here, when we pass legislation over here, it does have a positive impact in places like Bangladesh and other countries where forced labour is happening?

[Kalpona Akter]

If it has mandatory accountability and it keeps companies accountable, yes, it does. But without any teeth in the legislation, that doesn't help at all.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you. I agree with you that we need to have teeth behind things. I'm also of the opinion that any attention and focus on these issues helps the situation. We know this.

I'd also like to echo what Michael Chong, our colleague here at committee, said concerning the importance of implementing the rules on the books with respect to forced labour. Thankfully, we've had robust conversation around forced labour in Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region and other parts of the world. We need to, as a Canadian family, act to halt these things from happening so that those across the world are not negatively impacted.

I'll give the rest of the time to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

That's five seconds.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you for those five seconds, Mr. Zuberi. We're very grateful.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, based on the offer from Mr. Sheehan, is there unanimous agreement for the committee to have the minister on Monday? I suspect that there would be, but we should clearly delineate that.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have one minute, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Rumour has it that the government will introduce amendments to Bill S‑211. Government colleagues have had the opportunity to see these amendments, but opposition members haven't yet had the opportunity.

If, as is rumoured, some of these amendments would strengthen the bill, do you think we should be open to them? Or do you think that, in order to achieve the objectives you are pursuing, we should reject this bill out of hand and come up with something that isn't piecemeal and is more coherent overall?

[Alice Chipot]

We could indeed try to add a few elements to this bill that would apply in a gradual way, but it's the very spirit of the bill that's problematic, since the bill is based on the idea of reporting. In fact, whenever bills are based on the idea of reporting, we find that the only externality is that it stimulates a service sector of the economy that is used to collecting information on large companies. In the responsible investment community, we can already see that actors are preparing to be able to report on issues surrounding modern slavery.

The basic problem is the spirit of the bill. If we want to eradicate the problem and have a real impact, the challenge isn't to better identify the phenomenon, but rather to have a coherent due diligence framework inspired by European best practices. I think we're at that point.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to the last questioner.

Ms. McPherson, you have one minute.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I will direct this last minute to you, Ms. Dwyer.

We know that Bill C-262, which was brought forward by MP Julian, is strong legislation. It's available. We'd be happy to have the Liberals adopt that. What do you see in that bill that you don't see in this bill?

You have a very short time, but what's the last word you would like to share with us?

[Emily Dwyer]

I would repeat that, for us, effective legislation is legislation that requires companies to actually take action and not only report, that helps people to access Canadian courts, and that applies to all human rights. That is represented in Bill C-262 and it is not represented in Bill S-211.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

On that note, allow me to thank all four of our witnesses. Your testimony was invaluable and we're very grateful. Thank you, Ms. Dwyer, Ms. Akter, Ms. Chipot, and Ms. Hotchkiss.

You can leave as you wish.

Before adjourning, if I may, there are several things I wanted to bring to your attention. There were three budgets that have been submitted by SDIR, the subcommittee on human rights.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt the three?