Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 25th, 2023

[Anar Jahangirli]

I believe the crisis has been imminent in that region for 30 years. It's not today. It's not a year ago. It's not five years ago. It has been a crisis for many, many years. Although the conflict was frozen, it was very much alive in terms of across the line of contact, where Armenian troops were stationed within Azerbaijani territory for 26 to 27 years.

Right now, what we're seeing is Azerbaijan, for the last two years, offering peace: that we have to sign a peace with Armenia and then we start talking to Armenian citizens. It has already started talking to Armenian citizens. Last year, many contacts took place between the local authorities of Azerbaijan and Armenians living in Karabakh region to solve their day-to-day problems like water, like electricity.... A couple of months ago, I saw in the press that the President of Azerbaijan signed a decree mandating a gas line, a special gas line, to be laid, until 2025, to supply the region with gas and electricity. This is happening. Azerbaijan is putting forward these proposals, but the peace agreement has to be signed and then it will move forward much faster.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

What is the present state of living conditions within Nagorno-Karabakh at the moment?

[Anar Jahangirli]

It's difficult for me to ascertain that.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Can you describe the relationship between the control of the Lachin corridor by eco-activists, as opposed to the Azerbaijani government?

Is there a relationship between the eco-activists and the Azerbaijani government?

[Anar Jahangirli]

Speaking of eco-activists, I call on this committee to invite their spokesperson to testify. I've asked several committee members to have the person who is with the protesters right now to speak.

If you get a chance to speak to the people who are on the ground, you will have a much better understanding of what's going on.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to direct my final question to Mr. Waters.

You referenced Canada's now 30-year diplomatic relationship with Armenia. We heard testimony in the earlier panel that, perhaps, the present situation nestled within the protracted conflict would be aided by Canada also establishing a relationship with Azerbaijan.

Can you comment from your perspective as to whether that would be beneficial to the peace process or not?

[Dr. Christopher Waters]

I think Canada should speak with Azerbaijan. It has to be with Azerbaijani government authorities because, unfortunately, there is no independent civil society in Azerbaijan right now. There's no two-track diplomacy with Azerbaijan. It's with the regime or not with the regime.

I think we should speak with the regime, absolutely, and we should encourage peace. We have leverage with Armenia in a way that we didn't even a year ago. I think we should use that leverage, as well, to encourage both sides to make necessary concessions, because concessions that are difficult to sell politically at home will be necessary on both sides.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Epp.

We now go to Dr. Fry.

You have five minutes.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for reasonable presentations. I think both have a sense.... I feel their integrity and their sincerity in saying that there are ways we need to end this, and they're very honest about what they know is on the ground.

When we talk about conflicts, what we see is that both sides always have their story to tell, and those stories are nearly always biased. As Rob Oliphant said earlier on today, the first casualty of war is truth. We need to talk about how we can get this to happen, if there really is a blockage of humanitarian aid. We've heard some people saying there is. We've heard some people saying things are getting through and that there are videos of certain things getting through.

The bottom line I wanted to ask is this. Russia is now there in that corridor to keep peace and to allow for movement. It is my feeling.... I am the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly head of delegation. I talk to both sides every time I go to these meetings. The parliamentarians seem to be reasonable people. They are on the right side of this. They want to make changes. Yes, they each have a beef about certain things, but I think there is a willingness there for people to speak. What I feel, though, is that both sides don't want Russia there. They were always under the aegis of Russia, and they want to get away from that.

My question is this. Given that Russia is not necessarily trusted and given that the European Union, while it is there, helping with assistance.... The reality is that you need to have the OSCE, which understands the history and whose nation states surround that region and belong to that region.

Would it not be an idea for Canada, which is a member of the OSCE in good standing, to try to talk about how the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe—the OSCE—can be that force that observes and makes things happen while the agreement is ongoing?

I realize Minsk has died, because Russia is in it and because Russia continues to want to influence the region. I realize that Minsk has no chance of working now with the Ukrainian war, so we have some real, practical problems to resolve.

Is the OSCE the best body to intervene? That would include Canada. That would include all of the 57 member states, many of whom have the trust of both Azerbaijan and Armenia.

Could I get a quick response, both from Mr. Jahangirli and from the professor?

[Anar Jahangirli]

Thank you very much, Dr. Fry, for this question.

I think that you pointed to a very pertinent issue of Russia's presence in the region and the fact that both counties, both societies, want to distance themselves from Russia's influence and Russia's involvement, but there is one major distinction here. That's right; currently both countries are trying to do so, but Armenia started doing so only after Russia stopped sustaining the occupation of Azerbaijani territories.

For 26 or 27 years, Russia supported Armenia as part of the CSTO, the Collective Security Treaty Organization that Armenia and Russia are members of, to sustain the occupation, to guard Armenia's borders and to make sure that Armenia's troops stationed in the occupied territories of Azerbaijan, which contributed to 700,000 people in Azerbaijan living in IDP camps....

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I am aware of the history. What I'm talking about is moving forward. What I'm talking about is the best way to move forward. What is the best vehicle for doing it? Is the OSCE still the better vehicle?

[Anar Jahangirli]

I don't think the OSCE has leverage in the region to continue negotiating with the parties. The European Union has achieved a lot of progress in mediating the conversation, mediating talks between Azerbaijan and Armenia. I believe that's the way both parties have seen it.

The Prague declaration last year brought Azerbaijan and Armenia to recognize their commitment to recognize each other's territorial integrity within their nationally recognized borders.

The European Union is the way to go, I believe, in that respect.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Is there time for the professor to give a quick-and-dirty answer, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

There are 20 to 30 seconds, Professor Waters.

[Dr. Christopher Waters]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Fry, as a former member of the OSCE mission in Kosovo, I'm a big fan of the organization. I do fear that the organization has some tough days ahead of it, and while I think we should push the OSCE to continue to act as an intermediary, potentially even to have a field presence there, I agree with my colleague that the European Union has a current presence on the ground, one that it has agreed to renew.

Ms. Vartanyan from the International Crisis Group referenced the renewal of the mandate as well. We should absolutely support that. We should support any forum and every forum where we can encourage the two parties to dialogue.

If I could stress one more thing, though, it's that the fake news approach to the humanitarian corridor issue is really puzzling and problematic for me. While there's much to discuss in terms of finding a durable peace, this issue of allowing humanitarian access unfettered is a really important one and threatens civilians now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Dr. Fry.

Thank you, Mr. Waters.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have two and a half minutes, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask Mr. Jahangirli two questions.

First of all, I was happy to hear you say that a solution to the present crisis must be found. However, on the website of your Network of Azerbaijani Canadians, the latest statement dated January 23 is about a five-point proposal submitted to Armenia with the aim of normalizing relations between the two countries.

Why don't you even mention the Lachin corridor blockage?

What efforts has Azerbaijan made so far to end the blockage of the corridor, in line with its commitments in the ceasefire agreement?

[Anar Jahangirli]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Thank you for visiting the website of our organization. Our organization's website is not a news page. We use the page to connect with our members and with our community. We don't make statements on everyday events that happen in the region.

To your second point, if you could....

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

As regards the first point, I would remind you that this statement does date from January 23.

The second question is this.

What efforts have been made by Azerbaijan so far to end the blockage of the corridor, in line with commitments in the ceasefire agreement?

[Anar Jahangirli]

The two years that this road existed with unimpeded access is a demonstration of Azerbaijan's commitment to making sure that the traffic was unimpeded—

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Right now—

[Anar Jahangirli]

—up until the protests began. However, in those two years, Mr. Bergeron, Armenia did not uphold its commitment. It did not honour its commitment to opening communication for Azerbaijan to access the Nakhchivan region of Azerbaijan.

We're talking about the commitment of one party. We'd have to talk about the commitment of the other party as well.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Did you wish to comment, Professor Waters?

[Dr. Christopher Waters]

I'll make one very simple comment, Mr. Bergeron, which is that there is no humanitarian crisis in Nakhchivan. I agree with my counterpart. There should be a comprehensive peace deal that includes Nakhchivan, but Nakhchivan is well supplied from Turkey.

There is simply no humanitarian issue, whereas the Lachin corridor presents a clear and pressing humanitarian issue right now.