Foreign Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, to answer your previous question regarding stepping up, when it comes to, for example, the climate change fight, we've allocated an additional $350 million that was also not in the budget.

My point, Mr. Chair—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But I was asking about the total amount and that percentage of ODA. Of course, we know that has been reduced by 15%.

The question I would like you to answer right now, if you don't mind, is on Bill C-41.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Okay, but you asked multiple questions before, and I was trying to answer those. I can move to Bill C-41 if you like.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Let's move to Bill C-41 now.

I'm going to run out of time. I'm sorry, sir.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

For Bill C-41, this is something we knew we needed to change. The legislation previously in place did make that a challenge. We had to work with our colleagues to make sure we had the right balance. I actually commend the committee for its work on this. That's what committee work is for, to make the legislation better. I look forward to the results on that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But, honestly, it took 18 months for this government to bring forward legislation. It was not what the sector or anyone with anything to do with international humanitarian law asked for. It was in fact weaponizing and criminalizing the international development, which is the opposite of what the Government of Canada should be doing.

You were the minister responsible for making sure that didn't happen. I don't know that you succeeded in doing that very well, Minister.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, we did consult a lot of different organizations. I would say that when it comes to the work that is being done now, the legislation, we look forward to what the results will be—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Don't you think that as a government you should have brought forward legislation that didn't need so much work done at committee? Wouldn't it have been a better scenario if, when you brought forward the legislation, everybody would have said, yes, this is exactly what the sector has asked for, and thank you for bringing it forward?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The thing is this is what we have. Our committees system is in place to make our legislation better when things need to be changed and to have that opportunity. Otherwise, why bother having these committees?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Often legislation doesn't need this much fixing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Ms. McPherson, I'm afraid you're out of time.

We now proceed to the second round.

First we go with MP Epp.

You have four minutes, sir.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

In your opening comments you stated that the department has exceeded its goals. The recent Auditor General's report says otherwise.

Over the last few years $3.5 billion was spent on a gender lens, a feminist focus, billions of dollars of taxpayer funds spent without any recognizable achievements.

How do you account for that?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, we have exceeded some portions of our goals. On certain measurements, we are still working towards that.

Also, I would like to emphasize that when it comes to the work we were doing, because of the different crises, whether COVID or Ukraine, and the work that we have to do, it is difficult to put a G3 level in. I'd be happy if our deputy minister would come in to explain—

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

If I could, you said in some areas you have exceeded, but the Auditor General's report refers to 24 of 26 indicators for which outcomes were not able to be measured.

Are you disagreeing with the Auditor General there?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I had a really good discussion with the Auditor General on where we could improve. There are areas in which we are actually having a significant impact. When it comes to the reporting of the results on where we actually need to focus our improvement, I'm going to have the deputy minister provide greater details if you like.

[Christopher MacLennan, Deputy Minister, International Development, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Very simply, what the Auditor General found was that we are able to demonstrate that we have results at the project level. However, where we have difficulty is translating across 1,500 individual projects to roll those results up into a single set of indicators.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

When did the department discover this? It's been five years since 2017, when this focus was crafted.

Was it the Auditor General's report that brought it to your attention? Was there no earlier indication?

[Christopher MacLennan]

We've struggled at times with telling the larger result story without having to focus on individual elements—such as global health, global food security and the various other ways in which we provide development assistance—to be able to have a single set of indicators that are small enough to be understandable.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

How would I explain to my constituents...? All of us around the table have a heart for international development, but these are taxpayers' dollars. There's a lot of competition, obviously, in the government for taxpayers' dollars, yet we have an Auditor General report that does not back up that story.

What would you say to the residents of Canada on this AG report?

[Christopher MacLennan]

What I would say, very simply, is that if you look at individual projects—and we can go through them one by one—we can demonstrate the great results that are being achieved. The difficulty has been in reporting in a succinct, global way across all of those individual projects.

However, at a project level, we can demonstrate the results clearly.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Minister, when will the changes based on the Auditor General's recommendations be completed?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, the work has already started when it comes, for example, to the reporting system and having an interim database put in place. The deputy minister and the team have already put a plan in place. The exact timeline—

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

When will that be completed?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We can't give you a timeline just yet, but once we have the plan in place, we'll work with the Auditor General's office on this, and I'll be happy to report back on it.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Okay.

On the farm where I come from, we work from an outcome to start and then work backward to the crops that we're going to grow. My bank manager doesn't accept project reports along the way that don't lead to a positive outcome.

I look at the funding splits. It's 80%, 15% and only 5% for infrastructure. Wouldn't you start with the goals that you're trying to achieve with our international assistance and work backward from there to the project level, etc., rather than announce funding?

How do you determine those funding splits when you don't have an outcomes-based approach?