Foreign Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Is that right? You only found out through media reports.

Thank you, Minister. That's striking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We will now go to the last question for the minister.

We go to MP Vandenbeld.

You have four minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here, Minister.

I'd like to go back to some of the lines of questioning from earlier from some of the opposition members, with that claim that ODA has been cut.

In fact, in your answer, you explained that it has gone up, in fact, I believe by 49% since 2015, and then it was mentioned that when something happens—like Ukraine or COVID—that is an exceptional thing, a crisis in the world, there then is an exceptional off-cycle ask and that is funded.

Does this mean that in the future we would still be able to do these exceptional off-cycle asks if there are emergencies like those that continue? In essence, nothing has changed other than the fact that we keep on increasing ODA to 2030...?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely.

In fact, as I've explained in previous years, because emergencies do pop up, we need to respond. Regrettably, this is a pattern we're going to have to continue to repeat. The numbers we're talking about are analyzed at the end of the year, and we're starting out a budget at the beginning of the year. The baseline budget has systematically increased. Even in this budget, we're asking for over $100 million above the previous baseline budget as well.

What I would encourage members to do is this: Look at where the line has been going. At the same time, we need to step up when crises come up, which we have done, whether it's Ukraine.... Sadly, it was COVID. It might be something else. I'll remind people we had to do a $250-million budget request. This does not include some of the other challenges we have had. Our government is absolutely committed to increasing our development assistance. We have shown the pattern and the graphs on this. I can show members.

I also want to make a point here on the work that's done. I take the opportunity to visit many projects. We have a lot of work to do when it comes to putting all that information together, project by project. I encourage this committee, if they ever have an opportunity, to go visit those projects. Not only are people in Global Affairs doing absolutely amazing work on the ground, so are our partners. Go see the impact they're having.

I can give you one example. Since the Sudan crisis.... When I was visiting South Sudan, thinking it's an area I needed to visit because the peace agreement was expiring, I went to one place where they had a women entrepreneurship program on farming. They were growing things they weren't able to grow before. It's a small area. I'm originally from a small village. They're able to feed their village and sell the excess food. That excess food is the difference between, sometimes, their children getting medical support or being able to go to school. This is just one micro-example of having an impact on people's lives...or medical clinics in the slums in Bangladesh. The list goes on.

I encourage members to go and visit some of those projects.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

On results.... There was a question about the Auditor General's report earlier. I don't want people to get the wrong impression. I think we all know that, certainly, our feminist international assistance policy is having real results on the ground. What the Auditor General was saying is, we're not capturing that information, aggregating it and telling our story properly.

Could you perhaps clarify that, as well?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's the thing. We have the results. We have to get better at being able to pull it together so that, once we aggregate it, we can make even better decisions on this.

I also want to emphasize this, on the feminist approach: One of the key things I'm seeing—and I want the research to demonstrate this—is that, when people ask why we have a feminist assistance policy, it's the right thing to do. We need to send a very strong message. If you want to achieve your results faster, you take the feminist approach.

This is why Germany has now launched their own. Other nations, even though they haven't launched their policies, are taking our example, as well, because it's having an impact. Research has shown that, if you give funding support to women in certain areas, they will have a much bigger impact than if, as done traditionally, it was given to men.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Didn't you just make a big announcement on the women's voice and leadership program?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

MP Vandenbeld, I'm afraid you're out of time.

It now being past noon, I'll thank the minister for having once again appeared before our committee.

Of course, this was for members to ask you questions about the main estimates for 2023-24, but, of course, you answered a host of disparate and different types of questions, as well. We're very grateful.

We will now provide you, Minister, with a few minutes to depart.

I will suspend for two minutes to allow the officials to assume their positions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We will now proceed to the second part of today's session: questions for officials on the main estimates for 2023-24. I'm advised the officials will be remaining with us until 12:45 p.m.

The first question is from Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Genuis, you have five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up with the officials on Bill C-41. I know it's a Public Safety or Justice lead, and not you guys directly, but I'm hoping you're part of the process. Obviously, you deal with international development organizations and you'll be providing advice on the implementation of aspects of this. It's working its way to the justice committee. There are a lot of concerns about how it works.

I wonder whether you could tell us in which parts of the world, right now, development organizations need to make applications, other than Afghanistan? There has been a lot of discussion about Afghanistan, but the bill would apply in other places. Where would you advise international development organizations they need to make an application, other than Afghanistan?

[Peter MacDougall, Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues and Development, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You're suggesting that if there's another entity listed in the Criminal Code and operating in a certain country where Canadian organizations have to make an application—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The bill doesn't just apply to listed entities. I think you know that.

[Peter MacDougall]

Yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It applies to any terrorist organization. The problem is that development organizations are expected to know where they need to apply and where they don't, depending on what control looks like and what might be determined as a terrorist organization, even if it's not a listed entity.

I'm looking for what advice you would give to them if this bill passes in its current form. For what places would they need to make applications prior to operating?

[Peter MacDougall]

I think until the law is in place, I'm not in a position to make that judgment.

We have a very specific situation in Afghanistan with a listed entity that's become a barrier to humanitarian development organizations working there. In the context of humanitarian organizations, which I work with most closely, we've made arrangements so that they can operate there in the current situation.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Right. To your original comment, though, that you're not in a position to answer the question, I think you are and you should be, because we're deciding as legislators how to treat this bill. I think it's not some abstract hypothetical.

There's the question of...if this bill, as it's written by your government, were law today and humanitarian or other development organizations were asking where they needed to apply and with whom—if they're dealing with them—they should make an application, you'd need to be able to answer that question. At the least, they'd need to be able to answer that question in order to avoid prosecution.

What are those places?

[Peter MacDougall]

As I said, Mr. Chair, I'm not currently in a position to answer that question, because the law is not on the books—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Why does it matter if the law is not on the books?

[Peter MacDougall]

Because that is the moment at which an organization would have to make an application.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Let's say the bill was law. Let's say we agreed to pass the bill really quickly. Hypothetically, we just said there was unanimous consent. It's in the House and the Senate. It's done tomorrow.

Where would people have to apply? For what regions?

[Peter MacDougall]

Again, Mr. Chair, until the law is on the books.... If the law is on the books as it's currently amended, organizations will be able to come forward to make an application, and at that point, the government will be able to provide them with advice. Work is ongoing on that, but I'm not in a position to identify specific countries at this time.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I don't really think that's a reasonable answer, respectfully.

Clearly, you've given it and you're not going to move past it, but the reality is that organizations have to make these decisions about whether or not to make an application, and we as legislators have to make decisions about where this bill would and would not apply as written. For you to say we won't know until the bill becomes law where it would apply, it puts us in a bit of an impossible situation in deciding whether or not the bill as it's written works well or not.

Also on Bill C‑41, do you plan to provide advice to organizations prior to making an application? Let's say someone comes to you and says, “We would like to know if we need to apply in order to operate in a particular place or deal with a particular organization.”

Would you answer those questions?

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, Mr. Sarai, go ahead.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

I'm curious how Bill C‑41 and how it would be implemented has anything to do with the main estimates.