Foreign Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Welcome to meeting number 63 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room, as well as remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the members and the witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and mute yourselves when you are not speaking.

Interpretation for those on Zoom is at the bottom of your screen, and you have a choice of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use your earpiece and select the desired channel.

As a reminder, all comments should be made through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee resumes consideration of the main estimates 2023-24: votes 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 and L30 under Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development; vote 1 under International Development Research Centre, and vote 1 under International Joint Commission, referred to the committee on Wednesday, February 15, 2023.

It is now my pleasure to welcome the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Welcome back from your lengthy trip to Africa, which I understand you returned from yesterday.

Moreover, I'd like to welcome your officials who are accompanying you today. From the department, we have Ms. Cindy Termorshuizen, who is associate deputy minister of foreign affairs. We have Ms. Sandra McCardell, assistant deputy minister for Europe, Arctic, Middle East and Maghreb; and we also have Ms. Anick Ouellette, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer.

Minister Joly, you will be provided five minutes for your remarks, after which we will proceed to opening it up to questions from the members.

Yes, Mr. Chong?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

On a brief point of order, Mr. Chair, I'd like to voice my displeasure with the last-minute cancellation of the deputy minister of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

This individual was slated to appear until 7:38 this morning, and we got a last-minute cancellation. I think it's an affront to the committee that the deputy minister would cancel at the last minute. His testimony would have been particularly relevant because he was in PCO in the summer of 2021. He was not only foreign affairs adviser—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Chair, I don't believe this is a point of order.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

—to the Prime Minister, but he was also the acting national security and intelligence adviser.

Mr. Chair, I'd like you to voice our displeasure to the department, after this meeting, about his last-minute cancellation at this meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Chong, bear in mind that this is about main estimates, but your concern is duly noted.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

He is the deputy minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Absolutely, but you were running through his previous experiences.

That having been said, Minister, welcome.

You have five minutes.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be with all of you today.

Right off, I want to address the issue that is top of mind for everyone in the room.

MP Chong—Michael—what has happened is completely unacceptable. I cannot imagine the shock and concern of learning that your loved ones have been targeted in this way. Personally and also as foreign minister, I take this extremely seriously.

You have all heard me say, and I've said it directly to my Chinese counterpart, that we will not tolerate any form of foreign interference, not in our democracy, not in our internal affairs, full stop. I have made my expectations clear: All foreign agents in Canada must abide by the Vienna Convention, and if they do not, there will be consequences.

In light of the facts confirmed by CSIS, I have instructed my deputy minister to summon the Chinese ambassador. That is what he's doing as we speak. We will convey to him directly that we will not tolerate any form of foreign interference, and that all options, including expulsion of diplomats, remain on the table as we consider the consequences for this behaviour.

Of course, I'll have more to say if you ask me questions, which I'm convinced you will, on this topic.

I would also like to briefly update you on the situation in Sudan. As you mentioned, Mr. Chair, I returned yesterday from that region, where I met with Canada's ambassador to Sudan, Philip Lupul, as well as Canada's high commissioner to Kenya, and their teams, including our outstanding diplomats and locally engaged staff. Most importantly, I met with Canadians who were evacuated thanks to the swift work and dedication of our team, members of the Canadian Armed Forces and the support of our allies and partners, including many neighbouring countries.

I continue to monitor the situation very closely. My colleagues responsible for defence, immigration and international development are currently working with me to coordinate the government's overall response.

Beyond the immediate crisis, we believe that Canada can and must play its part in delivering humanitarian assistance by supporting the Sudanese people in their desire for a democratic future and by working for long-term peace and stability in the region.

Last week marked 18 months in my role. It has been a busy time and not just for me personally. Thousands of Global Affairs employees in Ottawa and around the world have been at work as well, and they have been working extremely hard.

For decades, we have faced conflicts, natural disasters and an ever-changing geopolitical landscape. Today, we face increasingly rapid change and increasingly complex challenges, whether it's the illegal invasion of Ukraine—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I apologize. We're having some technical problems with translation.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Can you hear me well when I speak French? Is everything okay?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, thank you.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Today, we're faced with increasingly rapid change and increasingly complex challenges, whether it's the illegal invasion of Ukraine, the pandemic, climate change or a host of other challenges. As Canadians, we're feeling the effects at home. What gives me great hope is that Canada is well positioned to meet these challenges successfully and to play a key role in solving the problems.

We are facing a pivotal moment for Canada and for the world, but Canadians can be confident that we are rising to the occasion.

The world changed profoundly on February 24 of last year with Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine. In response to this attack on freedom and democracy, we have witnessed the brave and heroic efforts of Ukrainians in their fight for freedom. Just as we have worked long to support a democratic Ukraine and as we have stood by the Ukrainian people fighting to protect their country since day one, we will be there to provide our full support after their victory as well.

We'll also continue to use every tool available to make Putin pay for his war by imposing severe costs on the Russian regime and on its enablers. We will also not rest until those responsible for the war crimes and for the crimes against humanity that are being committed are brought to justice.

While standing up against the Russian regime has brought Canada even closer to our NATO allies across the Atlantic, we are also a Pacific country. The Indo-Pacific is at the centre of a massive global shift. Decisions made there will have an impact on Canadians for generations and for decades to come. It is the fastest-growing economic region in the world and one with which Canada has strong and growing ties. We'll act in the best interests of Canadians. We're also deepening our relationships with India, Japan and South Korea—all of which I have visited in recent months—as well as with ASEAN members.

Finally, our government will continue to focus on the priorities of Canadians as we navigate the complex realities of today's world. With our talented diplomats, we will ensure that Canada is well represented at the table and that our voice is heard loud and clear. We are committed to protecting the national interest and always defending it. Of course, the interests of Canadians are at the heart of every decision we make.

That concludes my remarks. I'm more than willing to answer your questions in English and French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now open it to questions from the members.

For the first round, each member will be provided five minutes, and the first member is MP Chong.

You have five minutes, please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, when did you first find out that a PRC diplomat was targeting me and my family?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I learned it through the news.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Why is this diplomat still here?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I knew you would be asking me this question, because it's a valid question.

Just to go back a second, I can only imagine the shock, the pain and the worry that you've gone through, dear Michael, due to the targeting of your family and your loved ones. As I mentioned earlier, on a personal level, and as foreign minister, I take this extremely seriously.

You've asked me questions regarding foreign interference in the past. I've always said that of course we would not tolerate any and, second, that we would make sure that if there was any violation of the Vienna Convention, we would take action as—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Minister, article 9 of the Vienna Convention is clear.

I've heard your answer. It's not—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I am not finished, and—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Why is this diplomat still here? Article 9 of the Vienna Convention is clear. Article 9 says that the government can declare a diplomat persona non grata for no reason. The article is clear, so why is this diplomat still here? This is a diplomat who has more rights and immunities than the Canadians around this table and who can go around and conduct his foreign interference threat activities.

He has diplomatic immunity. He cannot be criminally prosecuted. We all remember the drunk-driving case of the Russian diplomat who mowed down and killed a Canadian citizen. Former minister Manley was unable to do anything about it.

You have given accreditation to a diplomat here who is using his diplomatic immunity to target not only me and my family but also other members of Parliament. Why do you, Minister, continue to allow this diplomat to be accredited in this country on Canadian soil? That is the question, and you haven't answered the question.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Let me answer the question.

Of course, Michael, I understand your frustration and anger, so—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

We haven't expelled a single PRC diplomat.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Michael, can I please finish—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

We are one of the few democratic allies in the NATO alliance—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Chair—