Foreign Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you.

Yes, indeed we are concerned about the race to nuclear weapons, particularly at a time when international security is at stake and we are seeing a rise of authoritarianism. In that sense, Canada will always put human security and disarmament at the core of our foreign policy. That is why we've made sure that we'd be joining the fissile material treaty, which is also at the core of making sure that we address the issues linked to nuclear armament.

I've raised this issue at NATO. I've raised it at the G7. I was there in the name of the Prime Minister with Prime Minister Kishida last September at the UN General Assembly regarding the importance of nuclear disarmament. You can always count on Canada's voice on this issue.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have one very quick question. Will you or anyone from the cabinet be attending any of the G20 meetings in Kashmir?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We'll make a decision when it is required.

We will be attending G20 meetings because it is important that Canada's voice be heard, particularly at the time of international security issues.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Will you send somebody to Kashmir, though?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson. You're out of time.

We will now go to the second round. Each member will be provided with three minutes.

We will commence with MP Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I have a simple question. The former CSIS director, Dick Fadden, said yesterday that the intelligence assessment of July 20 most certainly would have gone to the foreign affairs department. Can you commit to this committee to providing us with an answer as to whether or not that report made it to your department?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I'm sorry, Michael. Can you repeat that? I didn't hear it well.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes. Can you commit to this committee to providing us an answer, after the committee is done? Can you commit that officials will tell this committee whether or not the intelligence assessment dated July 20, 2021 was sent from CSIS to your department?

Can you just commit to getting back to us with an answer, yes or no?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I need to make sure that I abide by my oath, and therefore that the information that is classified—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I understand. Let me just clarify your oath. This is important.

Portions of this report have been declassified by David Vigneault. He declassified that under Canadian law in order to prevent threats to me and my family. He's authorized under law to declassify certain portions of it, which he did.

I'm not asking for the report. I'm just asking if the department would let the committee know whether or not it received this report. The report is titled “PRC Foreign Interference in Canada: A Critical National Security Threat CSIS IA 2021, 2022-31”.

I'm wondering, Minister, if you would commit to the committee in letting us know whether or not the department actually got this report.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

What I can say to you is that I'll shed light on this issue and I'll make sure that we're as transparent as possible.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

I take that as a yes, Mr. Chair.

I have a very quick second question. CSIS just came out with its 2022 report. It says:

Foreign interference directed at Canada's democratic institutions and processes, at all levels of government, can be an effective way for a foreign state to achieve its immediate, medium and long term strategic objectives. Foreign states— again, directly and via proxies—may seek to influence electoral nomination processes, shape public discourse or influence policy positions of elected officials using covert tactics. The purpose is to advance issues or policies that favour the foreign state, or quell dissent.

The report then goes on to make two recommendations to your government:

These threat actors must be held accountable for their clandestine activities.... We will also continue to inform national security stakeholders and all Canadians about foreign interference....

My simple question is, why is the government not following the advice of CSIS in holding actors accountable for their clandestine, covert and coercive activities?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

First and foremost, you know that CSIS is under the Minister of Public Safety's responsibility. Of course, I work with them on this issue. We all want to make sure that we protect Canadians across the country and abroad. At the same time, we need to make sure that we are acting in a thoughtful manner to address this, because this is affecting all of us and our democracy.

Yes, I can tell you that there will be actions. The first part of the series of actions is, right now, my deputy minister talking to the Chinese ambassador and summoning him. Also, I've raised it directly with my Chinese counterparts. I think it's important that I be able to do so and to continue to engage.

At the same time, I would tell you as well that we will continue to protect our democracy. I hope that we can all work together. This is not a partisan issue. This is something that every single party and every single Canadian want us to be able to solve. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will next go to MP Zuberi.

You have three minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today, Madam Minister.

I know that you and your department do amazing, important work in representing Canada's interests across the globe and in putting forth our approach, which is respect of the rules-based order.

We've heard a lot about what's happened to one of our colleagues in the news, and we all stand together in being extremely disturbed by this affront to the rights of a parliamentarian.

You did touch upon what we are doing with respect to our engagement with China.

I want to give you a moment to share anything else you wanted to share with respect to how we are protecting democracy and how that also balances with the economic concerns and interests of Canada. We deal with human rights and protect democracy, but we must also engage in trade with the world.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, MP Zuberi.

There are two aspects to your question that are important. The first one is this. I think we were clear when we came up with the Indo-Pacific strategy last November. At the time, I had conversations with many of you—including MP Chong—about the fact that we needed to have a strong and clear position regarding the Indo-Pacific but also China in particular. At the time, we said that we thought China was an increasingly disruptive global power. I've been saying that, and I'll continue to say that. I was quite happy that this didn't become a partisan issue. I think we all agree that that was the right thing to do. In the strategy, there was also more money to address the issues of foreign interference, giving more funding to CSIS and more funding to the RCMP.

Also in the strategy, it was clear that the question of the Uyghurs was also extremely important. I know, MP Zuberi, that you've been working on this. We've been supportive, as a government, of your motion to address the human rights violations against the Uyghurs—which the UN called a crime against humanity—and also that we would be doing our part to bring Uyghurs to Canada. I'm happy that this was also a non-partisan issue and that everybody supported you. In that sense, with regard to MP Chong, the facts that are linked to his targeting by the PRC are linked to his work on the Uyghurs.

I think it is important that we recognize that, as a country and as a Parliament, we have a position that is important and that is always part of Canada's DNA. It is to call out situations and violations against human rights, including in China, which is an important player on the world stage, and we'll continue to do that.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi. You're out of time.

We next go to MP Bergeron.

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the main estimates, you plan to spend over $1 billion to support Canada's presence abroad. To that end, I note that we plan to establish a permanent mission to the African Union in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, and to turn the office in Kigali, Rwanda, into a high commission.

I had the opportunity to ask the same question of the Minister of International Development. I know the committee needs to be briefed on this, but perhaps you know more about the proposed African strategy, which Parliamentary Secretary Rob Oliphant was looking to table in cabinet before December 2022.

Where are we on this? Perhaps, in passing, you can tell us about the peace missions?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Okay.

You've raised a number of different issues.

First, we do have more money to support Canada's presence in the world. That's good news. Last June, I announced the opening of six new embassies abroad and, as part of Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy, we plan to open one more embassy. So we will have seven new embassies. In the African Union, as you mentioned, the embassy will be in Kigali, Rwanda. We will also be opening embassies in Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, Armenia—your favourite subject and mine as well—and Fiji.

The purpose of this initiative is to ensure that our diplomats have all eyes, all ears on the ground. They will be positioned to know what's going on and, of course, inform the Canadian government and members of your committee.

With respect to the African Union, I will have the opportunity shortly to announce the appointment of a permanent representative. Things are going well. We will work toward putting him in contact with the embassy and positioning him within the embassy in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

With respect to Kigali in Rwanda, I will shortly have the opportunity to announce the appointment of an ambassador who will be based in Rwanda. He will also be based in Burundi. This will alleviate the duties of our ambassador, our high commissioner in Kenya. We will also make sure that our new high commissioner in Rwanda can get his accreditation. Of course, that's part of our vision for playing a more substantial role in Africa.

As I said earlier, I just got back from Kenya, where I had some good conversations with my counterparts, and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I am afraid we're out of time, Mr. Bergeron. We're now at 2:49, and you had a minute and a half, so we're considerably over.

Ms. McPherson, you have a minute and a half.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again, Minister, for being here with us.

Minister, I think you probably know that I've put forward a motion at this committee to conduct a comprehensive study on the actions that Canada should take to foster peace and respect for human rights and international law in Israel and Palestine. I think we can all agree that recent events have made it very clear that Canada's foreign policy towards the Middle East is not working and needs some serious review.

Will your government be supporting that study?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Of course, we'll support any study regarding what is happening in the Middle East and I look forward to hearing everybody regarding this issue. Thank you, Heather, for taking the leadership on this issue.

When it comes to our commitment to a lasting peace, it's always been our historic position that we support a two-state solution, but at the same time, the two-state solution must be linked to the fact that there's respect for the rule of law.

You saw my comments regarding the judicial reform that is happening in Israel right now. I'm extremely concerned. I've conveyed it to my counterpart in Israel. I've also talked to my counterpart in the Palestinian Authority, and we need to make sure that this commitment to the rule of law by Israel is respected.

I also think that many members of the Jewish community here have concerns regarding what's going on. I've been meeting with them. I have been meeting also with the Muslim community and trying to find a way so that we can eventually, I hope, charter peace, and so that these two states are able to live in peace and security side by side.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It would be awfully good as well if you could stop selling arms to Israel in the meantime, as they are breaking some of those international agreements. You did look at the voting record at the UN.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You're out of time. Thank you.

We now go to MP Hoback.

You have three minutes.