Foreign Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I believe it's my colleague, Mr. Sarai.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Go ahead, Mr. Sarai.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan.

Welcome, Minister.

I come from a region on the Pacific. It's safe to say that 40% of the population in the Lower Mainland hails from the Pacific countries, the Indo-Pacific in particular: China, India, Phillippines, Taiwan, etc.

The Indo-Pacific strategy itself is a vital and very important strategy. I was hoping you could enlighten us on how you built that strategy, whom you consulted with, and whether a rules-based order—rules-based trade, human rights and long-term security of territorial boundaries—was taken into consideration. Can you elaborate on that?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, MP Sarai.

Of course, the question of the Indo-Pacific strategy is extremely important. Why? It's the biggest investment in decades for Global Affairs Canada. It is a reckoning that we are a Pacific country and that since what is going to happen in the Indo-Pacific will have an impact on Canadians for decades, we need to be there, and we need to make sure that we're strategic about it.

We invested $2.3 billion, which is 43 initiatives affecting 17 departments, and our goal is to make sure that we are able to invest in security. That's our first priority. The second one is trade. The third one is really everything linked to people-to-people ties: immigration, humanitarian aid. The fourth one is linked to climate change and investments in infrastructure. Finally, the one that is dear to my heart is the diplomatic footprint, being able to have a lot of expertise regarding the region but also making sure that we increase our presence in the Indo-Pacific.

We are also putting a lot of emphasis on Japan and Korea, because they are part of our neighbourhood, which is the northern Pacific. We are also investing in Asian countries. We want to make sure that we become a strategic-level partner of Asia. At the same time, we are making sure that we have a good working relationship with India. I've visited India two times in the past four months, as it's chairing the G20.

Of course, everything we do is also linked to the protection and promotion of our national interests and to making sure that we defend human rights because that's part of who we are. That's part of our DNA, and that's part of our ongoing commitment at Foreign Affairs.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Minister, how have your travels been? You were in Japan, I believe. You were in India twice and other parts of the region. How receptive are these states and the region itself to our Indo-Pacific strategy?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

They are extremely happy because many of them have been saying that Canada has to be a reliable partner, and now we are a reliable partner because they see movement. First and foremost, many of you have travelled to the region, so thank you for that. Many of the ministers have travelled to the region. More than that, we have strong people-to-people ties. We have great academics, great students, great business people, so this is a full-court press by Canadians in general as we look even more west, which is fundamental to us.

I know, Randy, that you're from B.C. Some of you are from B.C., and it's natural to think of ourselves as a Pacific country. However, I think for too long we have been very much looking south to our best friend and neighbour, the U.S., and looking east to Europe because of our history. It's really important that we be able to look west. Thank you for the B.C. leadership to that extent.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

Switching to our best friend to the south, the U.S., we had a bit of a strained relationship, specifically with trade, with the previous leadership in the United States.

President Biden was just here. Can you tell us if that relationship has strengthened now? Is it stronger? Where can we move forward with that relationship? Surrey is also a border city with the United States. Just as we trade with the Pacific, we trade heavily with the United States, as well.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I think we had a fantastic visit from President Biden and his team. I think we have been able to work together on many of the economic benefits linked to investing in growing our economy, particularly everything linked to the green investments and the supply chain development of clean energy, green infrastructure, electric vehicles and batteries.

At the same time, I must say that I have the chance to see my counterpart, Tony Blinken, pretty much every month or every three weeks. We have a very good relationship. I would call him a friend. We work together on many geopolitical issues that range from the relationship with China and the reality that Ukrainians are facing right now with Russia's illegal invasion to protecting the Arctic together, finding a peaceful solution for Sudan, and making sure that Haiti is also top of mind as the situation is deteriorating.

You can see on the foreign affairs side, of course, that we're working together on a range of geopolitical issues. At the same time, we have a good bilateral relationship. One of the things we worked together on, along with my other colleagues, was the safe third country agreement, as we wanted to make sure that we protected our sovereignty but also were able to cover the entire border.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Minister.

We next go to MP Bergeron.

You have five minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, thank you for joining us with your staff.

I'd like to express our regret that we have so few opportunities to interact with you, and for so little time on each occasion. This strikes me as a bit of an anomaly, given that we are the Committee on Foreign Affairs.

The main estimates indicate that Canada intends to allocate over $10 thismillion to the Organization for Security and Co‑operation in Europe, or the OSCE, an important organization if ever there was one.

While some organizations, such as the Council of Europe, have excluded Russia from their ranks following its war of aggression against Ukraine, it is noted that Russia remains a member of the OSCE. I had the opportunity to speak in favour of its exclusion before the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.

Since Russia is still a member of the OSCE, we might as well take advantage of its presence. You know that it is among the co-chairs of the Minsk Group, which was tasked with finding a solution to the conflict in Nagorno‑Karabakh.

However, in a Global Affairs Canada press release on April 25, you once again urged the Azeri authorities to reopen the Lachin Corridor and asked that it “remain open and unimpeded to allow for the freedom of movement of people and goods”. Despite this, much like your December appeal, this one also went unanswered.

Have you had the opportunity to contact your Azeri counterpart to discuss the issue? What do you expect from the OSCE, more specifically from the Minsk Group, to finally break the deadlock in this situation, which is turning into a real humanitarian crisis?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you. That's a very good question.

I share the concern of the Armenian community here about the closure of the Lachin Corridor and its humanitarian repercussions.

In fact, only a month ago in the House of Commons, I called for the parties to the cease-fire process, so both Armenia and Azerbaijan, to abide by the terms of the cease-fire, which is not the case currently.

Also, you mentioned that the OSCE includes Russia. The OSCE is an organization that I trust and I have a lot of respect for, but the Minsk process is in trouble right now. I can't be more candid with you.

On the other hand, other initiatives are underway to find a solution that will bring some peace to Nagorno‑Karabakh and protect the Armenian community involved. This is the European Union's peace process.

I have asked the European Union to allow Canada to participate in this peace process. We are negotiating with the European Union and I will have more to say on this issue shortly. As you know, the situation in the Caucasus that concerns the Armenian community is particularly important to me. So I'm following it closely.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

All right. I guess we will have to be satisfied with that answer for today.

In the main estimates, over $4 billion is allocated to development, peace and security programs. In November 2017, while hosting a major international peacekeeping summit in Vancouver, the Prime Minister pledged that Canada would provide a rapid response force of 200 troops. There are only a handful, currently.

Has this pledge been budgeted for? Does Canada still intend to fulfill it? If so, in how many decades from now?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Your question is very relevant. It's important for Canada to play a role internationally to help ensure global stability at a time when there is concern that the current conflict will become internationalized. That's the big question.

That's why it was important that I go to Kenya to address the Sudan crisis. We know that this crisis can have several consequences, including destabilizing the region and generating migratory movement that will weaken several countries and put a lot of pressure on them.

In addition, we don't want the situation to become a repeat of what is also happening in Europe. That's why I wanted to go to Kenya. Of course, I wanted to meet first with the Canadians who were evacuated and our diplomats, but also to allow Canada to participate in the negotiations in Africa to find a solution to the conflict.

I therefore sat down with—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

MP Bergeron is out of time.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Bergeron, I'll be able to answer your question in the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

MP McPherson, you have five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank you all for being here.

Thank you for being here, Minister. I have a few comments I want to make first, and then I'll ask you a series of questions.

First of all, I want to say that I stand in solidarity with our colleague Michael Chong. To know that that diplomat is still here is appalling. To hear you say things like you're assessing it makes me very concerned that you're not taking this as seriously as you should.

That leads into my second comment. We've been meeting, as I'm sure many people around this table have, with human rights defenders, church groups, faith groups and international development organizations. Many of them have let us know that despite the fact that they have reached out to you, in some cases multiple times, they rarely hear back from your department. I am worried about that. I'm worried that it's a trend and that you're not responding to organizations. I just want to flag that for you. I know you won't be able to respond to that right now.

To start, I will ask you a few questions about Canada's arms sales. You said to Mr. Sarai that defending human rights is “part of our DNA”. I met today with Amnesty International from Peru. They were talking about the challenges that are happening in Peru. Canada continues to sell arms to Peru. We continue to sell arms to Saudi Arabia. We continue to sell arms to Israel. We continue to sell arms to Colombia. You have told me in the past that this wouldn't be the case and that you would make sure we were living up to the obligations under the Arms Trade Treaty.

To me, Minister, unless you have a vastly different definition of what the Arms Trade Treaty means, it doesn't look like you're living up to that. Can you tell us why?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you. There are many questions in there.

First and foremost, to go back to what I was saying regarding MP Chong's reality right now—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I was just making a comment. I'd actually prefer that you respond to the arms piece.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I just wanted to reiterate the fact that I take it very seriously. The question of the expulsion of diplomats is top of mind.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Minister, I think you know that I have only five minutes. I would prefer that you answer the arms question.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes. I hear you.

On the second thing, regarding meeting with human rights defenders, Heather, please, I'm always available, except when I'm not in the country. We always make sure to make ourselves available—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Minister, please go to the arms question. I know you don't want to answer that one, but I would really prefer that you answer that one.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I just think it was important to address that.

Regarding Canada's arms sales, I know this is important for you. I know you've raised it with me. I know it's also important for your party. We've been having ongoing conversations with Amnesty International. Actually, I met Amnesty International when I was in Sudan two days ago.

I hear you regarding the fact that export controls are a preoccupation for you. At the same time, I want to reassure you that we have one of the strongest export control systems in the world. At the same time, we will always make sure that the respect for human rights will be enshrined in our legislation and also taken into consideration when making decisions.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One would think that that may not be accurate, considering we are still selling weapons to places where there are very clearly documented human rights abuses happening.

I was also just in Japan. As you know, the G7 is coming up in Hiroshima. We listened to the hibakusha, the survivors of the atomic bomb. One thing they certainly have expressed is the need for us to be moving on nuclear disarmament. As you know, other NATO countries have agreed to attend as observers many of the nuclear disarmament talks on the TPNW. Canada, to date, has refused to do that. Canada has refused to engage in any way with the TPNW, which is appalling, considering that I believe members of your government said they were in support of that prior to being elected.

I'm wondering if the government is planning on sending an observation delegation to New York this year for the member states meetings.