Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

But Canada froze more assets than just those.

Right?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

That's right. We’re talking about bank accounts automatically frozen by financial institutions. However, we have to take into account the fact that it's a very large number of financial transactions. We’re talking about hundreds, maybe even thousands of frozen financial transactions. They range from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars, but the accounts don't all belong as such to an oligarch or individual on the list of people targeted by sanctions. They are accounts caught in the institution's net.

I can give the example of a Russian bank targeted by sanctions. All the financial transactions from that bank are automatically frozen here in Canada. Even if it's a transaction going from an aunt to her niece to pay for tuition. That's part of the work we're trying to do, meaning we're trying to clean it all up to make sure no unfortunate circumstances affect people who have absolutely nothing to do with the war in Ukraine.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

What about Haiti?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

As for Haiti, technically, as soon as a series of sanctions gets announced, assets are officially frozen. They prohibit all Canadians from engaging in transactions. However, those assets haven't been seized yet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We go next to MP McPherson.

You have two minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With my very short time, I'll ask you a series of quick questions.

I'd like to follow up on what my colleague Mr. Epp was asking you about, with regard to the permits.

I know that you can't give us specific information, but can you tell us how many requests for permits have been brought forward? How many have been approved? What is the time frame for those decisions to be made?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

I don't have the precise number with me. I would say the number of requests has probably been in the dozens. I would have to come back with a precise number for what has actually been approved.

Of course, there's a distinction here. Are we talking only about Russia? Are we talking about Iran and Sudan? We have, I think, 16 different countries under sanctions. We would need to do a drill-down.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

If you could provide that in writing and break it out by country for us, that would be great. How many have been requested? How many have been approved? That would be fantastic.

Really quickly—I'm sorry, but I have so little time—could you spend a little bit of time telling us about how Global Affairs Canada interacts with the RCMP and CBSA on enforcement? How often are you meeting? How does that recommendation process work?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

That was a key recommendation and I think one of the most important developments. We now have frequent exchanges. The modification of the legislation has also allowed for greater sharing of information, which really enhances our ability, especially in the context of seizure and forfeiture legislation, to target individuals and do a deeper drill-down. We have also established an interdepartmental governance committee, which we chair. Of course, the important departments there are the Department of Finance, the RCMP and a number of law enforcement agencies.

I would say that the co-operation has greatly increased and improved. That is absolutely key to our success. We continue to find ways to improve that coordination, because it's absolutely what we need for greater efficiency.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Also, we clearly need it for enforcement.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to Mr. Chong for four minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I'd like to build on MP McPherson's questions.

Who is the lead within the Government of Canada for the enforcement of sanctions? We know that GAC is the lead for designating individuals and entities to be sanctioned, but who is the lead for the enforcement of sanctions? Is it GAC or is it the RCMP and CBSA?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

GAC is the regulator. The Minister of Foreign Affairs is the overall administrator of the sanctions regime and has an oversight role. Of course, GAC does not have law enforcement capacity, so enforcement, investigation, etc., are under the purview of the RCMP and Public Safety.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Is CBSA included?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

Of course. Yes, I'm sorry.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Just to be clear here, you are saying that the RCMP and the CBSA are the lead for sanctions enforcement, and not GAC. GAC just plays a coordinating role.

[Alexandre Lévêque]

Again, I want to—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Who is the lead within the machinery of government? Who convenes the meetings? If there's to be interdepartmental agency coordination or central agency coordination, is it GAC that takes the lead on that, through its sanctions policy and operations coordination division, or is it the RCMP or the CBSA?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

Again, I'll say that the Minister of Foreign Affairs is the regulator and the responsible authority for this.

I would like to give the floor to my colleague Ms. Langlois, who could give you a more specific answer.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Good. Thank you.

[Marie-Josée Langlois, Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you very much for the question.

As you know, the different authorities for the various elements of the sanctions regime are situated across various departments. It very much depends on what we're talking about. For example, an investigation in the case of a Canadian who has done something that contravenes the law would fall under criminal police powers and therefore go to the right agency, which is the RCMP in that case.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Would GAC be the lead in any interdepartmental agency coordination?

[Marie-Josée Langlois]

We would coordinate on elements in which we can get involved. We wouldn't be able to have information on investigations that—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Let me give you a parallel example. I think the United States is far more effective at enforcement. The State Department, like GAC, makes the decision on whom to designate, whether individuals or entities, for sanctions regulation, but it's the treasury department that is the lead on enforcement through OFAC, their unit that enforces sanctions. It's very clear that if there's to be any interdepartmental coordination or any coordination with law enforcement, it's the treasury department that leads the coordination effort.

It seems to me there's a problem within the machinery of government in our system where, if I look at it, we have GAC designating individuals and entities to be sanctioned, and then it's not clear who the lead is within the machinery of government for all the interdepartmental and agency coordination. We have the RCMP and the CBSA, which are responsible for enforcement, but GAC also has the overall administrative responsibilities, as you were telling me.

We have this sanctions policy and operations coordination division within GAC, which received, along with the RCMP, some $76 million last October from the government. At the same time, in budget 2022 last year, the government announced a new Canada financial crimes agency. Nobody can tell me how that relates to sanctions enforcement. Then, also within GAC, we have the export and import permits division, which is also responsible for processing applications for import and export permits separate from applications under SEMA and other sanctions legislation.

It just seems to me that there's a problem within the machinery. There doesn't seem to be a single lead to coordinate interdepartmental and agency coordination. To me, that seems to be a big problem.

I'll finish on that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

For the last question, we go to Dr. Fry.

Dr. Fry, you have four minutes.