Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Hoback, I'm afraid you're out of time.

We next go to Mr. Oliphant.

You have five minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for being here.

I think I'm going to come at this a little differently than some of my colleagues have. We've already been hearing about a treatment and medications and prescriptions without having done a diagnosis. We haven't even done symptoms and signs of what the problems are.

I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that we need a lead, because that's a simplistic answer for me. What I'd like to know a little bit about from you is how we can help you do the job that we want done better. That's our goal.

I would start out by saying that it's Parliament that gives you your resources, not the government. Parliament has done that. We have estimates here all the time where no one asks questions about what we need to actually give you. I'm going to try to help you to help us do the job that we share and collectively want to do. I want estimates. Someday we'll actually talk about money and that kind of stuff, because it's our job to give you the resources you need.

I want to start off by saying that the government announced and Parliament did approve some $76 million for the sanctions regime, some of it going to Global Affairs on the determination of sanctions and some of it going to the RCMP on the enforcement and, I believe, the evidence that is used to determine sanctions as well. I think the RCMP is involved before and after, to a degree, in what's going on.

Can you tell us, is that money enough? Do you need more money? Are you under-resourced? What would be helpful?

I will give each of you a chance to do that. Maybe I'll start with the RCMP. This is your time, and then we'll end it when we get there.

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

We did have a say in the $76 million that was announced. We requested money specific to sanctions so that we can designate individuals responsible for specific tasks. What we've found since then is that sanctions evasion is a bigger issue than anticipated.

To go back to my earlier statement, sanctions by Canada weren't widely used, not like they have been in the last 18 months. Again, if you're not sanctioning or designating many people, you're not going to have the same level of sanctions evasion. Everything is interconnected. What we've found since then is that sanctions evasion investigations have increased. Canadians are contacting us with this type of information. It is criminal in nature. It is, as my colleague has said, our responsibility to do it. We have jurisdiction over that crime.

Definitely, if Canada continues its use of sanctions, we're going to need more resources to better enforce. When I talked about enforcement, I differentiated earlier, but I'm talking about sanctions evasion, which is criminal.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Given what we've done in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine, over what we did in the eight countries where we previously had sanctions, it's over tenfold, so you need more resources.

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I would say that as far as the work goes, it's much more than tenfold. Whereas seldom would we get disclosure from the banks, for example, two years ago—and these disclosures were very minor—now we're getting a lot more of them.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I want to give CBSA a chance.

[Fred Gaspar]

To answer your question directly, I'm not sure whether any officials have ever come before you and told you they have enough resources, thank you very much. If your purse strings are open, we'll take them, but—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Take your time to submit to us what you need. It's not the government that gives you the money; it's Parliament.

[Fred Gaspar]

I understand, yes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Come back to us to talk about this in real terms.

[Fred Gaspar]

Yes. That's really the context that I want to provide to you.

Because the CBSA administers over a hundred different legislative, regulatory and international treaty requirements at the border, our posture is to always put in place an effective and appropriate risk mitigation and measurement framework.

We're never going to be able to do everything perfectly all the time. We've been investing quite heavily in a modernization regime, which is really grounded in data, so that we'll be able to respond to volume growth and expanded mandates and zero in on and apply a risk-based approach that makes sense and is appropriate to the priorities of the Government of Canada, as confirmed to us by the minister through the mandate letter.

From our perspective, certainly our resources are always a discussion that can be had, but we're not letting that stop us. It's not something that's preventing us from—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

On something specific, you can come back to us.

I want to hear from FINTRAC, please.

[Annette Ryan]

I appreciate the question.

From a FINTRAC perspective, I would say that what we appreciate from Parliament is essentially a set of interlocking authorities that let us work with our partners. Specifically, Parliament established FINTRAC just over 20 years ago to have a role in terms of sharing information in respect of money laundering, terrorist financing and threats to national security.

What our colleagues at Finance have put before the House in Bill C-47 includes strengthening that mandate to allow our regulated reporting entities to report to FINTRAC directly in respect of sanctions, sanctions evasion and property related to sanctions. This will help us to work with our partners. Those authorities are also before the House, and we appreciate it.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you. Do submit.

Could I mention, too, that I think we're going to need more than three meetings? I wanted to raise that. We're just starting this thing.

I want to put that on record, because we may need you back—just to warn you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have two and a half minutes, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The reasoning Mr. Oliphant just gave us is both entirely appropriate and in line with reality, but it's incomplete. It's incomplete in the sense that Parliament is in fact the one that grants funds to the government, but on the basis of the government's recommendations. The government tells us what it needs, and Parliament grants or withholds funding.

Parliament can also make suggestions. In fact, in 2017, this committee recommended the following: "The Government of Canada should ensure that law enforcement agencies highly prioritize the enforcement of sanctions measures and are given the necessary resources to fulfill their duties."

The government didn't ask for a cent from Parliament to move on what this committee recommended. It took Russia's invasion, five years later in October 2022, for the government to announce it would allocate $76 million to strengthen the implementation of Canada's sanctions. It did so through a specialized office within Global Affairs Canada, and by providing additional support to help the RCMP conduct investigations, locate assets and gather evidence.

So, that's what the $76 million was for, among other things. We don't yet know how those funds were broken down. Maybe Mr. Oliphant can enlighten us.

As for the RCMP's role, you did insist on the one that involves getting results from measures taken by different stakeholders. However, according to the very definition of the RCMP, that's one of its roles.

What are its other roles, since the goal was to help you to conduct investigations, locate assets and gather evidence?

Other than receiving information from various stakeholders, what are your other roles?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Global Affairs Canada can now receive information we get from third parties, which wasn't the case before. We send them information about assets frozen in Canada, and Global Affairs Canada decides if measures need to be taken or not. If the department intends to act, it communicates with the RCMP. We help find information on the asset owners, the province in which they're located and other evidence.

It's intelligence work. Results are then sent to Global Affairs Canada, who makes the final decision. That's one of our roles. That's how things work. There's cooperation between organizations, including Global Affairs Canada. If memory serves, we meet once a week to review priorities and gathered intelligence. We also lead criminal investigations, which I mentioned several times.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will now go to MP McPherson.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Similar to Mr. Bergeron, I was quite shocked to hear that, as an opposition member, I have the power to determine the amount of money that goes to different allocations. I certainly would like to see more money go to the CBSA so they can do their work, and I certainly would be very interested in reversing our 15% cut for international development. Perhaps we could even invest in pharmacare in this country, now that I know that the power is with parliamentarians.

All joking aside, I am going to build on some of the questions that have been asked by Mr. Zuberi and Mr. Bergeron.

Could you please provide in writing to the committee how many shipments from the Uyghur region have been stopped and seized? Perhaps give us some information about how many shipments to Canada have been seized based on sanctions.

[Fred Gaspar]

I suspect that these are two distinct but somewhat related issues. With regard to the Uyghur region, I suspect the issue relates more to forced labour and, as colleagues will know, the forced labour regime is administered through the customs tariff. To date, we have had no specific seizures of shipments that have been seized due to forced labour.

We have been working with our international partners, including the United States, to be able to identify risks of forced labour shipments in entry. We did have one last summer that was identified and suspected of forced labour, but ultimately the importer was able to provide evidence to suggest that the seizure was not warranted.

We also work closely with Public Safety colleagues and colleagues across government departments towards the implementation of Bill S-211 in order to ensure that we continue to strengthen the forced labour regime and the child labour prohibition. Prison labour as well—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have very little time.

Could you provide that in writing? Certainly, I think we can all agree that the United States has been much better at being able to do this work, so it's great that you are working with them.

I'd like to ask the next question of the RCMP. What efforts is the RCMP making to trace and uncover the assets of designated persons? How many people do you have working on this particular effort at the moment?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Any resources attached to work on SEMA had to be reassigned from other priorities, but as my colleague has explained, it is a priority for us. It really depends on the week, but we have a number of analysts and police officers who, depending on the priorities, are going to be trying to uncover and trace assets. Again, it's twofold. It's to assist GAC and its seizing regime and also on sanction evasion.

What I will add is that these criminal investigations are extremely complex. They're international in nature, and often we are gathering evidence at the mercy of foreign countries that have a history of not collaborating with Canada. On the question of conviction and cases, we have to understand the geopolitical area we're dealing with with these sanctions and sanction evasion.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We now go to Mr. Chong.

Mr. Chong, you have five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to focus again on enforcement, but this time as it relates to real estate. Money laundering is one part of sanctions evasion, which includes money laundering through Canadian real estate. The Cullen commission in British Columbia concluded that billions of dollars are being laundered through British Columbia, much of it through B.C. real estate.

You know, it's a significant asset class. There are just under $4 trillion in Canadian residential real estate in Canada, and there's been a lot of appreciation in that real estate in recent years, so it's a big asset class to launder money through. You mentioned in your testimony that you collect information on property related to sanctions, so my first question is this: How do FINTRAC, the RCMP and Public Safety collect information on the beneficial owners of real property in Canada?