Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2023

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Yesterday, Canada and its main allies "reiterated their support for Israel and its right to defend itself against terrorism and called for adherence to international humanitarian law, including the protection of civilians."

Can you tell us exactly how far Israel's right to defend itself extends? Is it limited in any way?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

It's a question of proportionality and international law that I believe you're referring to here. We can return to you in writing with some further detail on that.

These are questions on which I gain the good advice of our colleagues who work in our legal department. There are rules of war laid out in terms of the protection of civilians and proportionality, and those are the reference points.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

In fact, I would like the committee to receive a written response. Many have raised the issue of proportionality, and I am among them. This question is going to be raised more and more often.

Mr. Chair, as I have only a few seconds left, I'd like to give the floor to my colleague.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you all very much for being here. I know how difficult this has been and I know about the work you've all been doing on consular support on this very difficult issue in a very difficult time, so thank you for the work you've been doing. I deeply appreciate it. I know Canadian citizens also appreciate it very much.

Obviously, we are all devastated by the terrorist attacks by Hamas on innocent civilians, including children. So many Canadians have been traumatized and are in mourning, and now so many Muslim and Palestinian Canadians are also feeling deep grief and fear as a result of the siege of Gaza.

There are eight families in my community of Edmonton who have lost loved ones in the past two weeks. Together, they've lost 95 family members, and those are just the families I know of in Edmonton. Across Canada, there are hundreds of families who are mourning the loss of their loved ones in Gaza and are terrified because of the ongoing bombing.

So far, the NDP is the only party that has called for a ceasefire.

I need to start with one very basic question. Do you, as representatives of the Government of Canada, believe that the collective punishment of Palestinians is, in fact, making Israelis safer?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

Thank you for the question. It's a thoughtful question.

I appreciate the impact this conflict is having on Canadians. We see it among our staff members at our embassies and our local staff as well, and we feel for them, evidently.

I am not in a position to judge on “collective punishment” as a term. It is a term that has been used, but it's a term that has specific meaning as well.

Israel's right to self-defence that we were referring to before has circumscriptions, and we want to remind them of that—that the protection of civilians remains paramount and that we need to make sure that civilians have access to humanitarian assistance. This is our focus right now, and we will continue to focus on that.

We feel for two and a half million Palestinians in Gaza, and they require humanitarian assistance. As an international community, we need to carry that message forward in an effective way.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

The government—your government—uses the language of “protecting civilians” and “international law”, but Defense for Children has now stated that over 2,000 Palestinian children have died as a result of the siege of Gaza.

You have still not called for a ceasefire. The Palestinian and Muslim communities are asking the government to call for a ceasefire. This is their number one ask. Where are those conversations and why have they not yet been undertaken?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We are undertaking conversations with all of our partners in the region as Global Affairs Canada. We are hearing from the neighbouring countries. We are receiving reporting from our missions on the ground, including the mission in Ramallah, about the circumstances as they occur. We are speaking to international organizations to better understand the circumstances and to better understand how we can achieve traction to be able to get humanitarian assistance in to the people who need it.

We're very focused on this right now—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but clearly you can see that it's impossible to get the humanitarian assistance to individuals if bombs are still falling. That's not going to be possible, is it? A ceasefire is the best way to ensure we can get that humanitarian assistance to the people who so desperately need it.

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

There have been a number of propositions that have been put out about how to generate safe zones and humanitarian corridors, including ceasefires. These conversations are ongoing at various levels.

For Canada, the question is, what is going to be most effective in the short term in getting assistance in to the people who need it while also respecting Israel's right to defend itself while rockets continue to fly?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would urge the government to consider that the Canadian citizens who are so desperate for the Canadian government to stand up and protect their rights are calling for this, and I would hope you would take that into consideration.

Our efforts to ensure security for all must also, of course, include justice. I think my colleague from the Bloc alluded to this. We certainly recognize international law and international humanitarian law, and, as you so rightly mentioned, the rules of war, because there are rules of war. It's a very low bar, but they are there.

We are seeing that the rules are not being followed, and I'm wondering where the Canadian government is in terms of using international mechanisms such as the ICC or the ICJ to ensure that all war crimes are prosecuted.

Further to that, considering that Canada has been very vocal about using those mechanisms for places like Ukraine and Syria, why is there such a hesitation so far to use those mechanisms in this case?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We are indeed a steadfast supporter of the International Court of Justice as the principal legal organ of the United Nations, and the International Criminal Court as a founding member of that, and we recognize the important role it can play in the peaceful settlement of disputes.

Right now, we're looking at humanitarian access as the key point and the most urgent point. We're looking at the situation of Canadian citizens, obviously, and we're looking at all hostages being returned. We do need to work with all of our partners to be able to encourage allies to respect their obligations under international humanitarian law and international law, and our political leadership has been outspoken on that point. We have conversations with our partners in the region about the need to respect international law.

I'll stop there for a moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to MP Epp. You have five minutes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today and briefing us.

I'm going to start with a question for Ms. Sunday and pick up from where my colleague left off. It's just a question of clarification.

Regarding Rafah and our Canadian presence there, did I understand you to say that we already have a presence there or we're working at having a presence there? If I understood your other testimony, we do have Canadians in Ramallah prepared to receive Canadians and assist them on the way out.

What is the exact status of our presence at the moment in Rafah?

[Julie Sunday]

In Ramallah, yes, we have our team on the ground. In Rafah, we do not have officials there. The Egyptian authorities are not permitting us to take officials there right now.

We also, of course, have to assess the security situation, so we are in active discussions right now about where we will be collecting our Canada-entitled persons when that border opens. That is a discussion that's under way, and many other countries are having this discussion as well. That whole northern Sinai region is closed off right now to all but an extremely small group.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Okay. I have a follow-up, then.

If I understood it, 34 aid trucks were prepared to go or have gone in through that point. Is that being monitored? Is any of that our aid, Canadian aid? Who is monitoring that if we don't have a presence there?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We don't have a presence at the Rafah crossing, nor do our like-minded colleagues. It's a non-permissive environment and we require the permission of the Egyptians to be there, but international organizations are organizing there and in the El Arish airport, 50 kilometres away from the border, to organize the conveyance of humanitarian assistance across the border.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you. That leads right into my next question.

In normal times, Canada flows aid bilaterally from government to government or flows it to our trusted Canadian organizations and their partners. I heard in the testimony that the aid that has been announced is being channelled through UN trusted partners. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

In that flowing to the partners of Canadian organizations, is it flowing bilaterally to governments there or is it flowing to the UN? Exactly what is the flow of the announced aid? What is it now, or what is it planned to be?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We are still without an announcement of exactly which partners those are, but we have a plan in place that will be announced shortly.

These are trusted partners. You can probably come up with a pretty good answer to that by looking at the appeals that have been issued. We've responded to the international appeals. Those are trusted partners that we'll be writing cheques to in order to ensure that they are able to carry out their vital, life-saving work in the region.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I recognize that the announcement has not been made, but could there be a matching kind of scenario that is flowing through trusted partners of our Canadian organizations to their partners in the field? Would that be a potential scenario for flowing aid?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

I find it a little hard to address hypotheticals.

What you described has been done in the past and would be considered.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Are land borders the only access points for delivering aid into Gaza, such as through Rafah or through an Israeli checkpoint? Is delivery by sea a possibility?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

I have not heard of any partners discussing delivery by sea. The discussions are exclusively focused around the Rafah crossing at this point.

The two Israeli crossings into Gaza are closed and are being blockaded, as you know, so Rafah remains the crossing point of choice to be able to deliver aid. Fortunately, we have a partner in the Egyptian government that we are working with to be able to facilitate this delivery.

There's strong focus in trying to come up with practical solutions here.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Along the same line of questioning, with solutions, you're talking about pre-positioning aid.

Is that primarily in Cairo or near the Rafah border? Are there other locations that potential trusted partners could deliver to, places where we are already working to get aid in place?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

The pre-positioning of aid by international partners is being done primarily at the El Arish airport, which I referred to before. That's 50 kilometres away from Rafah.

It's a good place to muster to be ready for the moment the border crossing opens to greater effect. We had 20 trucks that went on the first day, and there were 14 on the second. We have high hopes that there will be a stronger stream over the coming days.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.