Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have 10 seconds, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Briefly, what measures have been taken to compensate for the loss of 41 Canadian diplomats in the field?

[Weldon Epp]

Very quickly, we are managing essential services with a reduced team of 21 in Delhi. We are working across departments, including principally IRCC, which has a huge volume of public services. To date, they're managing to keep up with core services, although service standards and volumes can be expected to bring pressure on that small team in Delhi.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to MP McPherson. You have five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here today and answering our questions. It's very important for us to have this information. I really appreciate it.

I'm going to ask some questions about human rights and India's current administration's pretty questionable history on those rights.

More specifically, I'm interested in some more information about the arms that we are currently sending to India. We know that Canada's military export sales to India went from $6.2 million in 2021 to $54.8 million in 2022. That's over a 700% increase in sales. Knowing that the current Modi regime is being criticized for cracking down on political opponents, minority groups and women, do you have any concerns about the increase in the sales of military goods?

[Weldon Epp]

Canada does have an ongoing dialogue with India, as we do in our diplomacy with most countries on human rights-related issues.

Canada has raised concerns about human rights-related issues with India, principally in the public domain, through our response to India's universal periodic review at the United Nations human rights committee. The last was in 2022. In that, you will see that Canada raised concerns specifically about minority rights. We also raised human rights issues in private. I think in most cases we're most effective when we keep those sorts of conversations frank and through private diplomacy.

To your specific question in terms of the relationship or correlation to arms sales, to be honest, I have not recently reviewed those figures. What I can tell you from experience working on similar files is that out of context it can be, at times, misleading or confusing to look at the annual figures. In that sector, in military procurement, often one sale once in 10 years can, year on year, show a major increase, and the next year it may come down. I haven't looked longitudinally to see whether that two-year comparison means a trend.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you. That makes sense.

I'm going to take a moment now of my time to read a motion into the record. It's certainly not something we will debate today. It says:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a) and given the value of military goods and technology exported to India from Canada in 2022 exceeds $54.8 million, the committee order Global Affairs Canada to produce all documents, briefing notes, memorandums and emails between the department and the Minister of Foreign Affairs' office, the Privy Council Office and the Prime Minister's Office related to the granting of any arms export permits to India between 2021 and 2024, within 30 days of the adoption of this motion; and that these documents be provided to the committee without redactions, except to protect Cabinet confidences.

I'll send that around in both languages so everyone has that.

My next question follows, again, some of the concerns that we have with regard to human rights and India's National Investigation Agency. Knowing that the NIA has released hit lists of Sikhs living in other countries, including Canada, is there any concern about sharing information between the RCMP and the NIA?

[Weldon Epp]

I think that the conditions under which Canada will share information relating to Canadian citizens or nationals living in Canada will always be compliant with Canadian legal standards. That's the premise under which we share information for investigations in foreign countries, not least for extradition requests.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Knowing that this particular relationship with the NIA is very fraught, because of the current context and because we have seen that they have identified Canadians on hit lists, that would obviously make that a very sensitive area, and you would want to be very cautious on what we release with regard to information.

[Weldon Epp]

Indeed, and I have full confidence that the RCMP is alive to that and following Canadian legal standards in terms of how to respond to those concerns.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you. I think I'm done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, that's correct.

We'll go to the second round, and we start off with MP Hoback.

You have four minutes.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Four minutes doesn't seem like enough time.

I'll have to be very quick, Mr. Epp.

Is this the normal process we follow in a situation like this? Is it normal protocol in terms of how we handled the information from what we'd gathered through the investigation to relaying that information then to India in this case? If we had another country involved in something similar, would we do it the same way?

[Weldon Epp]

Can I just clarify? You're referring to the police investigation and the way—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That's correct. How it's handled.

[Weldon Epp]

Understanding that I'm a diplomat and not a policeman or investigator—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

What's your process for notifying the other country?

[Weldon Epp]

The notification for any information required would come at the point in an investigation where the police and prosecution were ready, presumably, to lay charges. For the police, their approach to engaging foreign governments would be, in this case, no different from any other.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Is it normal—again, in a situation like this—that the Prime Minister make the announcement, or should the police make the announcement in regard to the accusations because there haven't been charges laid from what I understand?

[Weldon Epp]

I think it's important to be precise about wording. I don't believe the Prime Minister levelled accusations. My recollection is that the Prime Minister spoke in the House of Commons—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

In the House of Commons, he made it very....

[Weldon Epp]

—about allegations. He referred to allegations of a serious nature based on information available, but he also referred to the importance of allowing a police inquiry to continue and have the space to do what it does.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Again—I'm sorry—I'm just short for time so I have to be fast here.

Why would the Prime Minister do that in the House of Commons in this scenario? Why wouldn't the RCMP do it? Who made the decision that we were going to talk about it in the House of Commons, because we talked about the political sensitivity regarding this?

We still didn't have the information out of the U.S. at this point in time, so why was the decision made to do it through the House of Commons and not through a press release or a media conference with the RCMP?

[Weldon Epp]

My understanding is that when the RCMP's investigation has reached the stage at which it would proceed through a potential prosecution, there would be a charge sheet released and there would be an announcement—