Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, again, for your testimony this afternoon.

Mr. Epp, you spoke a little bit about some of the things that Canada has done to express our discomfort and displeasure with the human rights abuses that have been occurring. Can you tell us a little bit more about the steps that Canada is taking to address the anti-minority hate speech from elected members of the BJP and the discriminatory laws targeting religious minorities in India, recognizing that these are the causes of the Indian foreign interference in Canada targeting our Indian diaspora communities?

[Weldon Epp]

I'll just frame it again. Canada continues to raise issues of concern with all countries diplomatically, including India. In the case of India, India is also a democracy, just like Canada. It's an imperfect democracy, but it does have long-standing institutions of democracy, which provide some degree—as Canada's do—of gives and takes. It is the case, for example, that India's democracy continues to produce largely free and fair elections. It is the case that India's supreme court and constitution are independent institutions of the government.

For the Government of Canada, when we see that we have specific concerns with respect to fellow democracies, we do tend to raise those issues in a spirit of exchange in private diplomatic meetings or, in the case of multilateral platforms like the human rights committee, during the UPR process.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Are those things happening? Are they being raised?

One of my concerns, of course, is that we have an Indo-Pacific strategy that is seeking to develop relationships aside from China because, of course, China has some very serious human rights abuses that we know it is committing against the Uyghur people, for example. However, it does seem that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm going to ask that you allow him to respond in less than 10 seconds, please. We're considerably over time.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, I didn't ask a question, so it's hard for him to respond.

It's fine. I'm fine. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Are you sure?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Okay. Thank you, MP McPherson.

We now go to MP Chong.

You have four minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing.

The British Columbia Gurdwaras Council and the Ontario Gurdwaras Committee have said that Canada's extradition process—which, as you noted, has been in place since the late 1980s—is being used by the Indian government to “stifle political dissent and silence government critics”.

Do you share these concerns? Why or why not?

[Weldon Epp]

I have full confidence in the Canadian extradition process and related law. As members of the committee may know, I have had some experience of that with respect to Canada-China relations recently.

Canada has a very high standard. The test that needs to be met, the threshold for Canada to pursue an extradition, is quite high, as you know. If anything, that has been a challenge—as was raised earlier—in bilateral relations as we work to understand legitimacy or the substance of specific extradition requests.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

One of the former foreign policy advisers to the current government has said, in The Globe and Mail, that the subject of Khalistani extremism came up in every single meeting with Indian officials, “in every talking point, in every pull-aside.”

My question is this: Does the government believe that there are Khalistani terrorist-financing activities going on in Canada? If so, what is being done to address the issue?

[Weldon Epp]

Aspects of the question get us into assessments that would come to my purview in Global Affairs Canada through intelligence means and others as a subject of ongoing investigations or police work. I won't speak to the specifics, but what I will say is that the premise is correct that concerns about Khalistani extremism and transnational crime are top of mind for the Indian government.

It's fair to say that we've had long-standing exchanges on this matter, and in some cases we've been able to advance those exchanges through structures. For example, we have an ongoing, GAC-led, Canada-India counterterrorism working group. That group will be meeting again soon.

We use those platforms to address definitional differences but also common objectives. For example, how India defines extremism or even terrorism does not always compute in our legal system, but there is an overlap and that's why we have these discussions, including that working group, to address those issues.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Closely related to the issue of terrorist financing and extremist financing is the whole issue of money laundering and beneficial ownership registries. Can you tell us what role GAC has, if at all, in the implementation of new measures to combat money laundering and terrorist financing in Canada?

I'm thinking about the new federal beneficial ownership registry that's coming into place, and I'm thinking about the proposed financial crimes agency of Canada that was announced and other measures that have been talked about and announced by the government.

[Weldon Epp]

It's a terrific question.

I'll readily admit it's not my métier or my area of specialization. I do know colleagues from our legal branch are very involved, but I'm afraid I can't speak to the details of that.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

We now go to MP Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Epp and officials, for being here today.

I want to start by very publicly saying that we are in this position...and I want to acknowledge the death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar and offer, again, publicly, condolences to his family and to the community in Surrey that was profoundly affected by that tragic killing. It has brought us to a difficult position.

The second thing I want to do is ask you to express to our officials in the mission who remain in Delhi, as well as those working remotely and our locally engaged staff, our appreciation for working under very difficult circumstances, and whether it's on the immigration side, the trade side, the foreign affairs side or the consular side, our appreciation for continuing to do that work in a very difficult situation.

The third thing I would like to say, and it's somewhat rhetorical—and I don't really expect an answer—is, can you imagine the outrage from the opposition if the Prime Minister had not taken the opportunity to speak to members of Parliament about this situation and had done it somewhere else or allowed it to happen somewhere else?

I don't expect an answer, but I think it showed a great respect for us as members of Parliament that it was the venue at which he chose to raise these allegations.

With respect to the position we're in right now, since that killing last year both the United States and the U.K. have raised allegations about inappropriate activities by the Indian government in those two very close allied countries. There are probably no two closer allies to Canada than the U.K. and the U.S.

Do we have conversations with them about this? How is our approach similar or dissimilar on this? The facts are different in what happened. However, are we engaged with our allies on this particular problem?

[Weldon Epp]

I just want to express my appreciation for this sentiment. I will convey to our High Commissioner Cam MacKay and his colleagues the sentiments of support expressed. It's been a very difficult stretch for their team, and they appreciate all the understanding and support.

With respect to our conversations with like-minded allies, these have been intensive. This is, again, a very unprecedented and intensive challenge that we are working through. There are also cross-cutting concerns, as I mentioned earlier. All three countries, the two partners you named and Canada, have large diaspora communities that have been targets of transnational crime. There have been challenges that affect these communities. There's a concern for domestic security as well as for engaging India on addressing those domestic matters that may play out differently in our legal systems than they do in India.

I would just also add that, for Canada, it has been important to work with these partners to ask questions of our Indian colleagues, as these partners have done. If you note, after the Prime Minister's statement in which he asked that the Government of India clarify its stance on arbitrary extrajudicial killings with respect to international law, we have seen that clarification from the Government of India in the public domain by the Union Home Minister, when he clarified that it is not India's policy and it has never been.

It's important to raise these questions, for Canada to raise them, to receive an official position from the Indian government and to hear from the Indian government, including from Prime Minister Modi, that they will, “definitely look into” any evidence and hold people accountable if there's evidence provided.

Working with our partners, we'll have to continue to raise these issues and have those conversations.

I just want to express my appreciation for this sentiment. I will convey to our High Commissioner Cam MacKay and his colleagues the sentiments of support expressed. It's been a very difficult stretch for their team, and they appreciate all the understanding and support.

With respect to our conversations with like-minded allies, these have been intensive. This is, again, a very unprecedented and intensive challenge that we are working through. There are also cross-cutting concerns, as I mentioned earlier. All three countries, the two partners you named and Canada, have large diaspora communities that have been targets of transnational crime. There have been challenges that affect these communities. There's a concern for domestic security as well as for engaging India on addressing those domestic matters that may play out differently in our legal systems than they do in India.

I would just also add that, for Canada, it has been important to work with these partners to ask questions of our Indian colleagues, as these partners have done. If you note, after the Prime Minister's statement in which he asked that the Government of India clarify its stance on arbitrary extrajudicial killings with respect to international law, we have seen that clarification from the Government of India in the public domain by the Union Home Minister, when he clarified that it is not India's policy and it has never been.

It's important to raise these questions, for Canada to raise them, to receive an official position from the Indian government and to hear from the Indian government, including from Prime Minister Modi, that they will, “definitely look into” any evidence and hold people accountable if there's evidence provided.

Working with our partners, we'll have to continue to raise these issues and have those conversations.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

We now go to Mr. Aboultaif.

You have four minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to the witness.

Mr. Epp, you mentioned that there was a conversation or perhaps a non-conversation at the G20 between the Prime Minister and Prime Minister Modi. Regarding that, do you believe that the incident or the episode where the Prime Minister brought this to Parliament was a reaction to what happened at the G20?

[Weldon Epp]

No. The Prime Minister's decision and the government's decision is.... The Prime Minister, Minister LeBlanc and Minister Joly have explained, related to addressing the very sensational and unprecedented matter that the media was bringing to the Canadian public's knowledge, the importance of speaking directly to Canadians about the government's knowledge of these allegations and what it was doing about it.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Do you believe that India has overreacted in its response by expelling our diplomats?

[Weldon Epp]

We were all surprised by the decision of the Indian government to kick out 41 Canadian diplomats. This is unprecedented in diplomatic history globally, so yes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Was that a sudden overreaction, or was there a collection of incidents that happened after Prime Minister Trudeau took prime ministership?