Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

Next, we have MP Bill Blair.

You have six minutes.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Excellency.

Mr. Laporte, it's good to see you again.

Ms. Kinnear, in your experience at OSCE, as our ambassador to that organization, you led, on Canada's behalf, multilateral approaches to security and sanctions and a number of important measures. We often see our relationship with respect to Ukraine in a bilateral sense, but I think Canada's role in facilitating that multilateral approach and bringing other like-minded countries together is also quite significant.

I might ask you to reflect a little on your experience at OSCE and some of the things that happened most recently at the 80th UNGA, where the Prime Minister took a leading role on the issue of the return of children and some other measures that have been taken on the state of multilateral support for Ukraine, with President Zelenskyy.

[Jocelyn Kinnear]

I was our ambassador to the OSCE, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, from 2020 to 2024. As I arrived, the Belarusian elections had just taken place, and there were massive protests in the street. There was a massive war between Armenia and Azerbaijan soon thereafter. I thought it couldn't get busier than that, but I was wrong. Those four years proved very busy.

It was clear to me from the beginning that among all of these different crises that were going on, Canada's partnership with Ukraine was always at the forefront of what we were doing. That gave us the role as trusted partner to Ukraine. As well, Canada has a very strong convening power. We have used that.

We definitely used that at the OSCE. I wasn't expecting to talk this much about that today, but certainly Canada was among a core group that used something called the Moscow Mechanism, which commissioned a report in early 2023 about the deportation of Ukrainian children, as well as reports in 2022 on human rights abuses committed by the Russians in the course of their invasion, as well as the treatment of civilian detainees. Canada has been engaged and really has had a leading role in this human side of Ukraine's war—the return of prisoners of war, detained civilians and children. There was a high point to that last October, when 73 countries, I think it was, and organizations came to Montreal and went away with many signatories to something that is now called the Montreal Pledge, which is a commitment of a global community of countries and organizations to keep these issues in the forefront. As you mentioned, in the UN we're also co-facilitating with Ukraine right now a resolution in the General Assembly, which is currently in consultation with other partners, and we expect that to be tabled in the coming weeks.

Again, Canada does have a strong convening power and ability to listen and engage with other countries to bring and build the tent, so that we can get as broad a support for Ukraine as possible.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks very much.

In fact, your experience at OSCE in a very multilateral environment, I think, informs and benefits Canada significantly in that convening role that we are capable of playing. It strikes me, as an observer, that this multilateral capacity to respond appropriately to Ukraine is under constant challenge. We often used to think of it as a bipolar type of thing, but it becomes multipolar, which you see with coalitions of the willing and different discussions and different partners. I think Canada's role in that is significant, and your experience in that environment is very helpful.

Mr. Laporte, Canada has been involved since 2014 in Operation Unifier, which we do not just one-on-one but in collaboration with Operation Interflex in the United Kingdom, and others. There has been a lot of discussion about the possibility of moving some of that work in Unifier either into or near Ukraine. I know there has been some indication from our defence minister that it's very much under consideration. I wonder if you might be able to provide us with any update on where you think that may be going.

[Eric Laporte, Acting Director General, International Security Policy and Strategic Affairs Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Certainly. As the member pointed out, Canada's been deeply engaged in training Ukrainian forces. Since 2014, over 47,000 members of the Ukrainian armed forces have been trained in a whole manner of capabilities. We've modified our training. First it was in-country. Then the invasion happened, so we moved out, and training is happening in multiple locations in Europe.

The discussions of the coalition of the willing and the Prime Minister have made it clear that Canada would be willing to consider scalable options, including potentially putting troops on the ground, boots on the ground, if and when required. That's all part of a conversation that is ongoing in terms of Operation Unifier and how we progress it further. There is certainly an active conversation about how we continue to provide the best training possible for Ukraine in co-operation with allies and partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

Next, we have MP Brunelle-Duceppe.

You have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Kinnear, thank you very much for joining us today. As Mr. Blair so aptly put it, we will benefit from your experience.

The ambassador talked earlier about additional sanctions Ukraine would like to see friendly countries like Canada impose on Russia. The energy, and the oil and gas sectors, among others, were brought up. Discussions also revolved around imposing sanctions on foreign entities helping Russia in this illegal conflict.

Does the government plan on imposing new sanctions targeting these sectors and entities?

[Jocelyn Kinnear]

Thank you for the question.

I'll respond in English, because I'm just a bit more clear that way.

I can tell you, certainly, that we definitely focus our sanctions, exactly as the ambassador was speaking about previously, on eroding and degrading those Russian capabilities or Russian revenues, etc. There's a strong focus on energy. The most recent sanctions that were announced on November 12 specifically target energy, LNG companies and revenue streams.

It also looked at financial sectors, so there was some focus on banks there, as well as cryptocurrency.

Then, finally, on Russia's military capabilities, there were specific entities added that relate to drone manufacturing and cyber actors.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Everyone seems ill at ease talking about China lately. However, every international neutral observer will tell you that China is playing a big role in this conflict, whether it's supplying Russia with natural resources or enabling dialogue, mainly with North Korea, which is sending soldiers to Russia.

What is the government's position on China's role in this conflict?

[Eric Laporte]

That is a very good question.

We know that, in this conflict, China considers itself a neutral actor that wants to be constructive. As others have pointed out, however, we know that China is providing financial support to Russia as well as components that can be used militarily. Further, it often raises Russian positions in international or multilateral forums.

As to Canada's position, we attempt to make those points fairly often to Chinese authorities, simply asking them to use their influence to achieve peace. We also point out that Russia's actions in Ukraine are contrary to the Global Security Initiative that China proposed in 2022 and that it wishes to implement multilaterally. Since this initiative includes important principles such as the territorial integrity or sovereignty of nations, we point out those contradictions in China's position.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Our work also involves asking sensitive questions at times so that our analysts can help us gain an overview of the situation.

You have no doubt heard recently about the scandal involving people close to President Zelenskyy. We have to mention it since it has happened. To what extent will that scandal undermine Ukraine's credibility and its relations with other countries including Canada? I would like to hear the department's opinion on that.

[Jocelyn Kinnear]

Thank you for that very important question.

I thought in this respect that the Ukrainian ambassador's response to the final question that was put to him was quite interesting, specifically the important role that Canada can play in democratic governance and strengthening it in Ukraine, a role that Canada has actually played. We have a very long-standing bilateral development relationship that has been focused since 1991, effectively. Well, it probably didn't start in the first three weeks after we recognized Ukraine's independence, but really since the 1990s. Governance has always been a part of that. We are certainly following the issue very closely. I can't comment, obviously, on any specific things, but it is an important issue to address.

It is important that the two anti-corruption agencies remain independent and at arm's length. This will be an important test for the Ukrainian government to see how those organizations and agencies can function independently. Right now, we are seeing the right signals from the Ukrainian government that they are moving to address this quickly. They are moving towards an investigation. What we would expect to see is that this investigation be done in an independent manner that will result in clear findings and corrective measures as appropriate. As I said, I can't speak to the specific allegations or the specific case, but we definitely see this as a top priority.

Canada sees Ukraine's future as being within the Euro-Atlantic family and strengthening its rule of law and governance. Having a robust European-style rule of law and governance with EU standards is going to be critical for Ukraine's EU accession. It's going to be critical to unlock investment after the war. These are the messages that we share with Ukrainians and that I think resonate with them and that they understand. This is why these types of things need to be addressed very seriously.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

Next we have MP Holman. You have five minutes.

[Kurt Holman, Conservative, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Your Excellency and Mr. Laporte, for attending the committee meeting today.

As a member of Parliament with a riding in London, Ontario, with a large Ukrainian population, many of whom have settled there recently due to the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, I am quite concerned by the unlawful deportation and forced transfer of Ukrainian children to Russia.

We know that 20,000 Ukrainian children have been illegally deported or forcibly transferred to Russian-occupied territories. Earlier, the ambassador of Ukraine said that only around 1,800 have made it home so far.

What more can Canada and its partners do, practically and urgently, to find these children, prove their identities and reunite them safely with their families and communities?

[Jocelyn Kinnear]

As I was noting earlier, this is really one of the key areas in which the Government of Canada has been engaged with Ukraine.

Let me take a step back. In the context of about two years ago, President Zelenskyy had created a 10-point peace formula in which the Ukrainian government identified 10 different areas where we need to move forward if we're going to have a just and sustainable peace. Of course, Canada is very much in favour and supportive of Ukraine's efforts in that area.

This included things like accountability and the environmental impacts of the invasion. The fourth point of the plan was called the human dimension, which is about working towards the return of Ukrainian prisoners of war, detained civilians and children. Canada, together with Norway, took on the co-chairing of that particular group.

Around the same time, Canada and Ukraine together also launched the international coalition for the return of Ukrainian children. I spoke a bit about the Montreal conference, obviously, at the UN General Assembly, in high-level week. I also mentioned that Prime Minister Carney and President Zelenskyy co-hosted. Canada has been at the centre of really keeping international attention and focus on this issue.

One thing Canada can't do.... Well, I don't want to say that, because I shouldn't be the one who decides, but Canada's not particularly well placed to have conversations with Russia or make Russia return these children. What we are doing is using our convening role to bring together different countries that care about this issue and are motivated to work on it in different ways.

What's happened in this group is that we have several different countries each working to their strengths. I don't want to use too many metaphors, but it's like having a strings section. You have lots of different countries that bring different strengths. Some of them are neighbours to Ukraine and can help with things around returns by being close by. Some of them are in a better position to have conversations with Russia and bring moral suasion to the table with Russia, and that has resulted in many returns.

It's really about bringing all of these players together to do things that Canada can't do by ourselves and to try to move forward on this. I agree with you; those are 1,800 important lives that have been changed for the better, but there's more to be done.

[Kurt Holman, Conservative, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I have an additional question.

Ukrainian children are being unlawfully deported and forcibly transferred to Russia, where many are subjected to re-education and pressure to abandon their language and identity. When these children are finally brought home, what long-term psychological, educational and cultural support do they need to heal from the indoctrination and reclaim their Ukrainian identity?

[Jocelyn Kinnear]

It's actually an area that we focus on quite a bit.

One thing I'm responsible for is our bilateral development program with Ukraine. Through that, we do many different things. As I mentioned earlier, we have a number of programs to strengthen Ukraine's governance, rule of law and civil society. One of the things we try to do with that program is provide supports to Ukrainian children as they return.

It's about the psychosocial support, reintegration and supporting families who are receiving their children when they come back. We do this through a number of different partners. UNICEF is one of them. We also do it through another multi-donor platform. This is definitely a crosscutting theme in a lot of the work Canada does through its bilateral development.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

Next we have MP Vandenbeld.

You have five minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here today.

I want to pick up a bit on this question of governance. I know that Canada has been doing quite a bit of governance and capacity-building in Ukraine, even before the war and the illegal invasion. I want to follow up on what this could mean ongoing, particularly for things like parliamentary strengthening, elections and parliamentary diplomacy. I know that Canada has supported networks of women legislators, including Ukrainian legislators, to engage with one another.

In particular, about elections, I was speaking with a Ukrainian MP last week, who was telling me that what will happen immediately after the war is that you'll have to have elections at every single level of government very quickly. The capacity to do that may be limited, so it's something we should be thinking about right now. I wonder whether you could talk a little about these programs, particularly the democratic institutions, parliaments and elections.

[Jocelyn Kinnear]

Mr. Chair, the development program includes a number of different projects. As the honourable member mentioned, we're not in a situation right now in which there are going to be elections in Ukraine imminently, but it is very much the case that, when the war is over, it will be important to move in that direction.

Canada's programming currently does a great deal of work. One main governance focus within our program is around decentralization. That's actually about building the capacity of the different levels of Ukraine's government to work together. There are what are called the hromadas, the municipal levels; oblasts, or regional levels; and then the national level. Of course, funding often goes through the national level, and the different municipalities are looking for ways to plan their own recovery and deal with their IDPs—internally displaced persons. Frontline communities have different needs from others, so a lot of our programming is actually around building the governance at the local level.

It's not only about building the Ukrainian government side of it; it's also about strengthening civil society. One thing that really has been critical to Ukraine's path, since 1991, is the very vibrant civil society that it has, so, through our development program, Canada is working to continue to strengthen that.

Elections are certainly something.... We're in regular contact with the Central Election Commission, through our embassy, looking at different forms of partnership there. As you say, it's a little further down the road, but we're thinking about it already to make sure we're passing the right messages so that all are prepared for when the time comes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

Actually, you anticipated my next question, which is about civil society and, particularly, women's civil society. We know that, throughout, even before...Ukraine had a very strong civil society. Right now, much of that is being carried out by women, and much of the support that we're providing, even in such things as demining and, certainly, SRHR, but also just carrying on the institutions—the education, health care, sexual reproductive health.... How is Canada supporting civil society? How are we supporting women's organizations? In particular, what are we doing to ensure that women and women's civil society will be part of the reconstruction, the peace processes—I'm thinking, in particular, about women, peace and security—and also at the political and negotiating levels?

[Jocelyn Kinnear]

Definitely, the role of civil society—as I mentioned or as I anticipated—is, indeed, a really important one that we have seen for decades now, and I would say that it has only become even more important in the context of Russia's full-scale invasion.

As the honourable member rightly pointed out, Ukrainian women, often through civil society organizations, have really had a super important role in terms of coming together to bring the resources together to provide the support that communities need, particularly in the context where many of the men in the community are fighting.

You mentioned demining, and I'll just give you one example of that. We have many projects funding demining, which is one of the core priorities in our security and stabilization fund, but oftentimes we need the women to be there and to step up and do some of these demining projects. In addition to that, it's an economic opportunity that women can engage in; it's also the women who are the ones who are there.

One of the challenges we have is that the equipment that is used for demining is often actually built for men, so women who engage in this are at a higher risk of being injured through these demining activities. We do have a project where we're working to try to refit the equipment or to restructure and reorganize all of the equipment that's provided, so that women can engage without being at increased danger.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

MP Brunelle-Duceppe, you have two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Laporte, I would like to pick up on what the ambassador said because I found some of his comments very interesting. He mentioned the foreign forces that are fighting alongside Russian forces that then bring technology and expertise back to their country, specifically as regards to training.

Is that something you have identified? if so, what is our response to that?

[Eric Laporte]

First, we are certainly aware of that. We agree with all of the ambassador's statements. We know that the foreign soldiers who are fighting in Ukraine, if they survive, can then return to their country and share lessons learned and information, among other things. So that is really on our radar.

For example, more than 15,000 North Koreans went to Russia, to Kursk oblast. Many of them were killed but some returned to South Korea and will no doubt provide information to their government.

Canada has nonetheless already imposed fairly strong sanctions against North Korea given its nuclear program and its evasion of sanctions. So that is taken into account in that context.