Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 25th, 2025

[Caitlin Howarth]

There is profound evidence at every level that Russia is not only involved but the primary architect of this entire system.

Some of the best evidence comes out of the Russian government's own mouth. We have the numerous statements, the articles of fact and the laws that they have passed to attempt to construct a legal fiction that all of this is not only in line with Russia's own domestic law but also part of a broader humanitarian objective on behalf of Ukraine's children. None of this is actually consistent with the international humanitarian and human rights laws to which Russia is bound through its own accession to the Geneva Convention.

The other things that we have documented include the use of the presidential personnel management fund, which is directly involved in the management and ownership of many of the assets of these facilities. It's also directly involved in the transportation of children to these facilities. We documented the transport of certain children to one of the camps quite profoundly in one of our earlier reports, but we've also found that the same presidential fleet has been used quite extensively, including the same plane.

We're continuing to track the assets. We're looking and continuing to dig into the money, and the more we see, the more we find that the Russian state is in absolutely every nook and cranny.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Mr. Aboultaif, you have five minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thanks, Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for appearing before committee this morning.

One of the objectives of the Russian war on Ukraine is the Ukrainian population, and in this case, it's specifically the children. We're not talking about just 10,000 or 20,000. We're talking about children since the 2014 occupation and after the invasion.

Canada sits as the co-chair of the international coalition for the return of Ukrainian children, and there is some kind of negotiation or discussion regarding a peace plan. We know that this is going on. I know that Mr. Kuleba touched on confidentiality when it comes to some of what's going on behind the scenes, but it will be, I think, beneficial for this committee to learn where the return of the children fits within the peace discussion that is going on.

I'll start with you, Ms. Howard, and then I would love for Mr. Kuleba to weigh in on the same question.

[Caitlin Howarth]

This is the question when it comes to the peace negotiations. The children are fundamentally the tip of the spear when it comes to establishing the human dimension of the war.

When it comes to the 28-point plan that was put forward in recent days, there's much to be said about the lack of humanity in this plan, which treats Ukraine's land as if it were completely devoid of human beings. We know that these are very real decisions that would impact the lives of well over a million children, to say nothing of their families. We know that this will impact Ukraine's future in a massive way.

The reality is that if Ukraine's children did not matter, Russia would not be so adamant about trying to take this issue off the table. They are constantly working to muddy the waters, to inject more disinformation into our facts and our figures and to try to disappear information. If this didn't matter, if accountability on this issue were not an issue for Mr. Putin, then frankly, we wouldn't be seeing this be so effective, but it is. Ukraine's children will take us out of this war.

[Mykola Kuleba]

You mentioned the impact of this war. As a children's ombudsman, I monitored situations with children for seven years after the first invasion. We lost, over 11 years, almost half the total population of children. We lost them. Now they live all over the globe, and more than a million children are being held hostage because of the occupation of territories. Now we have, for one child born, three people dying. It's a demographic crisis in Ukraine.

My thoughts about what should be included in peace negotiations are that a program should be implemented to identify children and families living in the temporary occupied territories and displaced to Russia, with the aim of reunification and repatriation.

Ukrainian officials should be provided with complete information identifying all Ukrainian children, citizens of Ukraine who were under 18 years of age from before 2020 to February 2022. Access should be provided to an independent hotline and to services on repatriation, humanitarian assistance and other types of assistance. If necessary, children would be given the opportunity to restore their citizenship and receive appropriate compensation for violated rights.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Kuleba, you also mentioned that people like you cannot enter Russian territory to even ask or investigate, but the international coalition must have had an opportunity to do that.

Would you be able to brief us on the activities around that, and if there's any hope that this will get anywhere in understanding the destiny of these children and what's going on?

[Mykola Kuleba]

I don't want to be pessimistic, but I participated in the Minsk negotiations as a children's ombudsman, and we negotiated with Russia about children. The outcomes were zero. Nothing happened.

I don't believe that Russia will bring any kids, because every child can testify about war crimes—every child. That's why it's not in Putin's interest to give any kids back. It's because there are huge crimes—crimes against humanity and war crimes. That's why Russia is turning them into Russian children, into Russian soldiers, and the intention for their identity is clear. It's clear.

That's why only your pressure, only the pressure of countries like Canada and your allies, can support us, first of all, to receive appropriate information about all of them, and then to help them to reunify with their families and bring them back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

We next go to MP Bill Blair.

You have five minutes.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both the witnesses for your very compelling testimony and your expertise, which I think can be very helpful to us.

One thing I have somewhat struggled with as I've read the materials and listened to your testimony is getting a more precise understanding of the scope of the problem, recognizing that, as we define the number of children, perhaps there are different ways of defining different groups of children.

I'm going to turn to you, Ms. Howarth.

For example, we are aware that in June, Ukraine provided a list of 339 children unlawfully deported to Russia and sought their immediate and unconditional return. We've heard a wide range of numbers here, so perhaps you could assist us in better understanding how we determine the precise nature of the challenges we currently face.

[Caitlin Howarth]

This is the question. It is such a challenging one, and it is one that our team is undertaking right now in working to update our grasp of where these children are, how many there are and exactly which cohort they fall into.

There are roughly four that we track. There are those who have been sent to the camps and sanatoria. There are those who have been taken from the front line itself, captured in the course of battle. There are those who were taken from orphanages and institutions. Those make up the vast majority of the 315 that we documented in our previous report.

There are also those we believe have been taken through the filtration process, through which entire families were essentially given one option: They were told they had to get away from the front line and told to go east or go nowhere, so they went east.

Those children who may have been separated from their families through filtration are the ones we believe may make up such a huge number, ultimately, of the children taken into this system. We believe that Russia's own figure of 700,000 Ukrainian children in Russia is largely made up of those who have come through filtration at some point, families that have relocated.

Our biggest concern here is ultimately with the lack of transparency. It's the lack of any kind of process, any kind of insight into Russia itself, because they allow absolutely no international access. There is no way for families to provide any outreach to say that they're there, they're safe and they're in fact together, and to do this in a way that the international community can clearly point to and say that we're confident that this is free of coercion and that people are in fact safe and are living in a manner that they wish and have the freedom to move onward to another country, should they so choose.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have another question.

The context for this discussion is rapidly changing, as we are all aware. For example, in the 28-point peace proposal that the United States initially offered, which I know is now under considerable discussion, provision 24 talks about a humanitarian committee being established to resolve outstanding issues, which include the return and exchange of all remaining prisoners and bodies for all bases. It says specifically that civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children, and that a family reunification program will be implemented.

This is made much more complicated by the fact that certain territories that are now occupied by Russia that may be, through this peace process, ceded to Russia. Therefore, the status of children who were taken from those areas, depending on how the eventual process resolves, could also be changed fairly significantly.

I'm wondering how we thread this needle. What role would you see, first of all, for the important data and information to inform this discussion?

[Caitlin Howarth]

One thing we are looking for is to make sure that, as rapidly as possible, we are able to concretely state the number of people we believe Russia has fully ingested and the number of Ukrainian children we believe it has built a dedicated capacity to indoctrinate.

As we've said, it's not just a question of programs that Russia has set up for their own children; it's also the degree to which they have set up dedicated paths for the militarization, the indoctrination and, essentially, the ingestion of Ukraine's children to purposely separate them from their families. That's the scope that we're trying to get our arms around right now.

We initially estimated it at 35,000, but we believe that this number is low and soft, especially given the size and the capacity of the facilities that we're seeing being built and, frankly, their purpose, which is deeply concerning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

Next we go to MP Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes, please.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kuleba, we're also here to discuss tough issues, which can be hard to hear. You've already talked about this, but could you give us more details on the types of psychological and physical trauma you observed among the children who were returned?

[Mykola Kuleba]

Thank you so much.

All the kids who have been brought back have huge trauma. First of all, many of them have lost their loved ones, parents or relatives. Some of them faced huge crimes when their friends were killed before their eyes or they were threatened by Russian soldiers at their schools. It's a huge trauma, especially for younger kids.

I can tell you one story about a six-year-old girl who saw Russian soldiers torture her parents before her eyes. She stopped speaking. When we rescued her, she couldn't speak. It was several months before our trauma therapy work enabled her to start speaking again.

For 100% of the kids who have been rescued, after our rehabilitation, the number one thing for them is safety. Everybody is talking about safety, because they were not safe in the occupied territories. We have kids who were sitting isolated in their homes for more than three years because their parents were really afraid that they'd be kidnapped.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you Mr. Kuleba.

Ms. Howarth, earlier you talked about the Geneva Conventions. Canada is a signatory to these conventions and has obligations in this respect.

To your knowledge, has the Government of Canada used the studies from your lab to guide its strategy on the issue of Ukrainian children?

[Caitlin Howarth]

Yes, to the best of our knowledge. The work we do is closely coordinated with the Office of the President. We make sure that everything we document is immediately transmitted to the Office of the Prosecutor General and shared with the Ministry of Justice, as well as with other accountability mechanisms. That's the full back end of our files, not just what is publicly reported.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

In your opinion, after the government has looked at your work, what should the government's obligations be regarding this situation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Give a quick response, please.

[Caitlin Howarth]

We know that some of these cases will go on for quite some time. There's ongoing support that Canada can provide for the accountability mechanisms.

As an American, I will be a little subtle here and just say that I think Canada is a friend of international justice and accountability and can do much in this arena to ensure that they are moved forward with the speed and thoroughness that the Ukrainian people deserve.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ahmed Hussen]

Thank you very much.

MP Kronis, you have five minutes.

[Tamara Kronis, Conservative, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both witnesses off the top. You've both provided such informed and thoughtful testimony about such a sensitive and painful topic for so many of the people who are watching at home or are of Ukrainian descent in Canada.

One of the lenses through which I'm looking at this is from my position on the human rights subcommittee of this committee, which I think both of you have appeared at before on other occasions. When I was preparing for this meeting this morning, I reviewed the three press releases that I could find that were issued by the human rights subcommittee.

Ms. Howarth, a December 1, 2023, press release from the human rights subcommittee specifically calls for the creation of the centralized registry that we were speaking about earlier and that you referenced in your comments. As of that date, 386 children had been rescued, according to the briefing we had.

Almost two years later, in 2025, it appears that an additional 1,200 or so children have been rescued, but the registry doesn't exist yet. Could you elaborate on the barriers to the creation of that registry?

[Caitlin Howarth]

There are many of them.

Honestly, I think a lot of this is also based on the technical details of establishing a registry that works across so many different areas of law enforcement.

We've been pleased to work with Europol on sharing our back-end data. We believe that the Europol common system, working as an information clearing house for international law enforcement, is an excellent one, as it's already essentially an established mechanism with a set of tools and protocols and guidance that various law enforcement agencies can abide by and have agreed to.

That said, what is needed here is the guidance of those who understand how to set up global missing persons case files for track and trace for years to come, because that is exactly what we're looking for.

We've learned much, and there's actually quite a great deal that Canada can do in co-operation with our global partners in the south, including Argentina, Guatemala and Chile. They have seen generations of their children also disappeared under challenging regimes, but they have also had success with trace and DNA work over many generations.

There's much that we can do there.

[Tamara Kronis, Conservative, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I believe there are many Ukrainian Canadians who are watching this committee's testimony from home. While we're waiting for that registry or that centralized set of tools, if those people in Canada have information, where can they send it?

[Caitlin Howarth]

That's a really great question.

Right now, we know that Ukraine's government has its own centralized database. I'm confident that Mykola also has people who are happy to take tips, particularly for children they know are looking to get out of this situation right now. All of that is highly sensitive.

In the work that's being done by those two teams, I can't say enough about how important it is that people get that information into their hands right now.