Evidence of meeting #27 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was syrian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Distinguished Senior Fellow, Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
I would just conclude quickly on this, sir.
Distinguished Senior Fellow, Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
Very quickly, there are three central questions. How genuine is the break of the government from its terrorist past? I think this is an open question, and it's an important one. How real is the commitment to inclusive government? Is it just for show? You've already heard about some of the steps that were taken. Also, can accountability actually be measured? Can we put in place those measures?
That's my conclusion.
Syria is a work in progress. I think we can be helpful, and also at the same time demanding.
With that, I look forward to your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
Thank you very much for your remarks.
I now invite Ms. Deschamps-Laporte to make her opening remarks.
Laurence Deschamps-Laporte Professor of Political Sciences and Scientific Director, The Montreal Center for International Studies, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Chair and members of the committee, for this important study and for inviting me today. It's a great honour to be here.
Thank you to the diplomats we heard from for their important work, as well as my colleague, Dr. Tepper, who spoke very holistically about the situation.
I am a professor of political science, specializing in the Middle East, and the director of a research centre on international issues that brings together about 150 researchers at the Université de Montréal. I have also spent some time at the Government of Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs in the service of my country. With that background, I would like to share with you three main observations on the current situation in Syria. They pertain to the political transition, the role of diplomacy and the situation in the region. Before answering your questions, I will conclude my remarks by addressing Canada's role.
In terms of the political transition, you already have a good picture of the situation. Nevertheless, although Syrians were liberated and happy to know that Assad had left the country for good and that the war might hopefully end, it cannot be denied that grave concerns about the political transition remain. Power is now in the hands of a government with its roots in violent Islamic groups. If we are not careful, certain sectarian dynamics could emerge again. While they may be different from the previous dynamics, they are no less troubling.
Last week, for example, the political transition brought about new restrictions on the sale and consumption of alcohol. Some of those restrictions existed under previous regimes, but as public measures, they may indicate a tendency to limit civil liberties. Some caution is called for.
The second observation is on the role of diplomacy. This is a tool that can resolve conflicts and support the citizens, but it is not a gift that automatically guarantees legitimacy. It does not in itself legitimize the other country. Just because we are careful and well aware that there are grave concerns about the origins of the current regime and about the possibility of preserving and nurturing pluralism in Syrian society, it does not mean that we must disengage. I see an important role for the ambassador and his ability to work in Syria on Canada's behalf. It is possible to develop diplomatic relations and to remain careful at the same time. It's not an easy dance, but dance we must. If Canada as a nation chose not to develop diplomatic relations, it would be the same as disengaging. I do not think that is the solution, but care is required.
Third, I'll turn to the situation in the region. I imagine that, when the committee previously discussed conducting this study, it was deemed a worthy one because Syria is both important and fragile. The current conflict only makes the fragility worse. It is dashing some hopes in the region. That existing fragility will affect the conflict, and the most vulnerable people even more. They are the internally displaced and the returning refugees. They are the women and the groups that, whether or not they are called minorities, can fall prey to political repression, depending on the regime at any one time. These are the fragile groups who deserve our attention even more.
Finally, Canada's role is important. I fully concur with the remarks made by my colleague Mr. Tepper. Currently—and this is rare—Canada is well regarded by both the regime and the people. In fact, we have almost unparalleled legitimacy in Syria, for various reasons. The welcome Canada extended to Syrian refugees is one, but another is that we are not perceived as polarizing. Let us seize this opportunity to acknowledge the fragility and to strengthen the country and its institutions by supporting, but not encroaching on, the positive forces in the country. Civil society in Syria is hungry for dignity and human rights. Canada can champion those efforts in the knowledge that, despite the war, various groups have implemented some rather innovative programs, with impossible amounts of money, especially in matters such as evidence gathering and justice.
Canada can play a role in three areas: supporting institutions and the transition; justice; and women and gender issues. We know that budgets are limited, but huge amounts of money are not required. The positive forces, whether in the diaspora or the experts in non-governmental organizations, NGOs, are not actually looking for major funding. They are looking for support for their efforts.
Thank you for your attention. I will be happy to answer your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
Thank you for your remarks.
We will suspend for one minute because we have to test the technology for the connection of the next witness.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
I call the meeting to order.
I now invite Mr. Abou Diab to make his opening statement.
Please proceed.
Khattar Abou Diab Political Analyst and Director, Conseil Géopolitique Perspectives, As an Individual
Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the committee.
It is a great honour to appear before you to present my views on this thorny question of the transition in Syria. I will be brief. I will then be ready for discussion, on the heels of the valuable presentations of my two colleagues.
Above all, I have to say that the Islamic government, which took the place of the Bashar al‑Assad regime, is redoubling its efforts internationally to help the country out of deep isolation. The overall climate is less oppressive in Damascus today, and civil society is relatively active.
However, the political transition in Syria is experiencing serious setbacks. We could mention the hasty and not-at-all transparent process of national dialogue and of the elections that were held in 2025. The process did not meet expectations. The need for internal political dialogue sustained over time must be emphasized, as must the implementation of transitional justice, without which the rule of law cannot take root in a state. The Syrian economy must be further improved, given that it is still degraded. Social conditions cannot be forgotten, especially the conditions faced by the more vulnerable and the internally displaced. The country is in need of major rebuilding. Most in need of rebuilding are its people. Syrians' confidence needs to be restored.
Syria is a social and ethnic mosaic, a country of distinctiveness. Unfortunately, after the regime with roots in al‑Qaeda came to power—they were previously linked to the terrorist group al‑Qaeda—there were terrible incidents of murder in the Sahel and massacres of Alawites in March 2025. Between May and July 2025, there were also deadly confrontations in Damascus province and in the south. Another community, the Druze, was hugely targeted in those confrontations. We also must not forget the executions of Christians that are still being carried out, the attacks against the Kurds, the continuing acts of foreign interference—principally from Turkey and from Israel in the other direction—or the extremist practices of the authorities targeting moderate and secular citizens. All this to demonstrate the fragility and flaws of the transition in Syria.
Building an inclusive Syrian identity will require concerted efforts from the provisional Syrian government, from civil society and from international players. The new transitional power, basically dominated by the interim president, Ahmed al‑Sharaa, is under the control of the HTS, the Hayat Tahrir al‑Sham, which has its roots in al‑Nusra and al‑Qaeda. The HTS is behaving as if it is the only party in Syria and has infiltrated the state as it rebuilds. In addition, corruption continues to gnaw at the entire Syrian system in a number of ways. Imposing a single narrative on Syrians seems impossible to us because it's a country of various components and origins. The solution we seek is a state under the rule of law, a state with institutions. Given that it is not a secular society, a viable approach to the primacy of its citizens seems to be through partisan participation in religious and ethnic organizations.
In addition, a process of democratization in sequential, well-defined steps is needed. In order to preserve Syria's national unity and regional integrity, a federal system, a confederation, if you will, must be built.
Finally, international commitment to the success of the transition in Syria should have as a priority the protection of all the facets of Syrian society, human rights in general and women's rights in particular.
Canada has welcomed a major Syrian diaspora and many refugees. It has a clear, respected position in that part of the world. It could play a role in supporting civil society, in protecting Syrian minorities and in the country's evolution.
Thank you.
The Clerk of the Committee Simon Larouche
Mr. Abou Diab, you are going to need the interpretation because some members of the committee will speak in English. You have an option for that at the bottom of your Zoom screen.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
I will now open the floor for questions, beginning with MP Ziad Aboultaif.
You have six minutes.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for joining us, Dr. Tepper, Dr. Deschamps-Laporte, and Dr. Abou Diab who is in France, I believe, where it is late.
Since December 8, 2024, when the regime changed in Syria, the country has had inflamed communal conflicts—persecution, threats, abuse, rape, humiliation and murder—with Alawites, Druze, Kurds and Christians.
Dr. Abou Diab, do you believe that these ethnic religious minorities I've mentioned feel safe? Do they have any level of security from the current government? If yes, why, and if no, why?
Political Analyst and Director, Conseil Géopolitique Perspectives, As an Individual
Those minorities have no security in the country nor is the country under the rule of law. The previous speaker gave examples like prohibiting alcohol in Damascus. But that's not all.
The greater danger is that Damascus has been divided into two sectors. In the smaller, Christian sectors, alcohol is allowed. In other areas, it is not. As a result, citizens are somewhat divided into first-zone, second-zone, third-zone, etc. categories.
It is true that most Sunnis, who now govern the country, suffered great discrimination during the Assad regime, including murders and massacres. However, that does not mean that the Alawite, Christian and Druze minorities, or even the Ismaili and Kurdish minorities, can now be punished for the wrongdoings of the former regime.
It is also true that, for example, the regime has agreed to form investigative committees to examine what took place in the Sahel and in southern Syria, in Suwayda. Actually, though, they are not implementing the communities' recommendations or decisions.
A viable justice system has not yet been established in Syria, because no transitional justice happened and no justice bodies have been reformed. Canada and the European Union, for example, might well take an interest in the area of justice and put a stop to some actions.
A country like Syria cannot be governed by sharia law. A legal system based on a single religion is impossible because, as I have explained, the country is very pluralistic. Syrian pluralism has to be respected.
Given the major change and the re-examination of the whole regional structure, I greatly fear that the minorities are still paying the price in Syria.
Thank you.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Thank you, Dr. Abou Diab.
War crimes and sectarian violence by the interim government forces and informal militias that are supporting the government forces took place. Is there any legitimate structure to hold the government and these affiliated groups accountable? Are you aware of any attempts or any actions to do so?
We're talking about war crimes, about sectarian violence, about people being killed and captured, the burning of villages and a long list of violence against humans and vulnerable people.
Is there legitimate structure available there? Has anyone been held accountable for these crimes?
Political Analyst and Director, Conseil Géopolitique Perspectives, As an Individual
No, there is no legitimate structure. One of my students, Almoutassim Al Kilani, was appointed to a position to study the problems associated with transitional justice. He resigned shortly afterwards. When I asked him why he resigned, he told me that al‑Qaeda people were in charge of Syria. It was a chilling answer, but it was real.
At both the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Defence, those in charge come from pro-Turkish groups affiliated with the Turkish army, or from HTS, a highly extremist group seeking the liberation of the Levant, or from other groups like Ahrar al‑Sham. Even the leaders of what is now called the general security directorate, and of other groups, are still under their influence. Tribal militias and informal militias still exist.
Many Alawites have been abducted. Many Alawite women have been raped. In the south of Syria, 33 Druze villages are still occupied by government forces and their affiliates. In the south, a kind of semi-blockade still prevents the free movement of 600,000 people. The whole situation is infected as a result. The Kurdish problem is still not resolved. There is still tension in areas around Kobani, among other places. Even the Christians around Hama, in Damascus or in other cities, are still being executed. Sir, please really look at the number of Christians in Syria at the moment.
Political Analyst and Director, Conseil Géopolitique Perspectives, As an Individual
There is a huge difference between the situation before the war and the one after the war. Syria has really changed.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
Thank you.
Next we have MP Steven Guilbeault.
You have six minutes, please.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Abou Diab, thank you very much for those very enlightening answers.
I have some questions for Ms. Deschamps-Laporte.
Just now, we were trying to gauge the difference between 2016 and 2026. How do you and your colleagues in the academic community evaluate the change in the situation during that decade?
Professor of Political Sciences and Scientific Director, The Montreal Center for International Studies, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Could you specify whether your question is about the political situation or the civil society situation, like poverty in Syria, for example?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
That's a good question. I am referring to civil society.
Professor of Political Sciences and Scientific Director, The Montreal Center for International Studies, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Of course, in 2016, the war was escalating, or expanding internationally, we might say. Let me remind you how the conflict started. It began with what seemed to be another revolution as part of what was then called the Arab Spring. It was thought to be the last frontier, given that the al‑Assads had ruled for decades. The country that was thought to be immune to popular uprisings finally rose up, with uprisings in the plural. Religious groups, secular groups and groups of students took to the streets. One would be hard-pressed to name any single group at the origin of those revolutions.
The repression was brutal in the extreme. A turning point came in 2015‑16, when foreign forces started supporting the groups. This was followed by stronger intervention by Russia, a refugee crisis, of course, and then the emergence of Daesh, which had had a number of names before that one.
Canada acted firmly in the crisis. I don't want to say that the country is stable today. It is not, but the situation is more hopeful. Amid that hope, Canada is seen as a legitimate player that can contribute to a more just transition with the ability to support the institutions.
Yes, there are things Canada can do. The world is presently in conflict. Generally speaking, though, the difficult work comes when things are going badly. Canada is a welcome player when a number of others do not always agree among themselves. At the Syrians' invitation, certain efforts can have great added value in terms of what Syria becomes, so I encourage you all to join their ambition.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you.
In your opening statement, you, like others today, spoke about the role that Canada could play. You mentioned that it need not involve a major investment.
Could you tell the members of the committee the two or three actions that, in your view, could be Canada's most meaningful contribution to support the transition in Syria?
Professor of Political Sciences and Scientific Director, The Montreal Center for International Studies, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
First, Canada could contribute in the area of justice. We know that a justice system must be established, even before decisions on the parliamentary system that would be most appropriate in any democratization. The justice system would have to give people some assurance that crimes are not being hidden and that, for example, sectarian groups are not seeking revenge.
Canada has already contributed to justice in the matter of evidence gathering. The UN system had what I would call an investigative body known as the UNIIIC. It was not part of the Security Council, but it was a somewhat parallel structure. A lot of Canadian jurists took part. Some wonder whether that might work. It's happened before, and the parallel processes for such investigative bodies do exist. In a process of establishing justice for Syria's future, that could be a credible path.
The work has already been done. A number of legal experts are working in international institutions. They already have roles, they are already hired and they believe in the system. They want to work with a country like Canada, which is seen to be legitimate. That's the first thing.
Second, Canada could play a role with women in Syria. We talked about the White Helmets. The White Helmets have had female units. Canada has also supported the roles of female mediators in Syria, when there was still a process in Geneva. My colleague Mr. Tepper mentioned Ms. Kabawat. In Montreal, we also have Ms. Muzna Dureid. She has won several awards for her leadership in the Syrian refugee crisis. Today, she is back in Damascus. I could name twenty or so such women. They are all Canadian now, or they have ties to Canada. They are known here. We have to listen to them, to bring them together. I am sure that they have ideas.
We have had dialogue days on Syria. They were half-days, actually, but they could have gone on for three days. If we had had more than a half-day, we would have added value by inviting more Kurdish groups, more women. Starting processes seems simple, and at the moment, simplicity is the key: it will set a course for the next decades in the country.
To conclude, I would say that we must not just look away. We must continue to gather information, and from good sources. Historically, in fact, during the war, Canada supported organizations that had a good picture of things on the ground. We know that access for journalists is not easy and that Syria is a dangerous country. We must continue the work that you have started in this committee, so that we know what is really happening in Suwayda and the Kurdish areas. The regime in Syria has to understand that no one is looking away and that international attention is on them. That attention is often where regimes find the greatest path forward.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
My time has run out. However, I would be grateful if you could provide the committee with the list of the 20 names you mentioned. I feel that would be very useful.
Thank you.