Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2009

[Mike Hawkes]

I don't know which item you're referring to, je m'excuse.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Here it states: “The Treasury Board Secretariat vote 50b proposes to increase the program expenditures of the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada from $70.5 million to $87.6 million.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Monsieur Roy, excuse me, but I believe you're into the estimates of Treasury Board, and we will have witnesses from Treasury Board who will be in front us here within about 15 minutes. So if your question could wait for that, the witnesses here would be much more comfortable.

Do you have an additional question, Monsieur Roy?

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I have another one. I want to go back to what I was saying earlier.

Mr. Hawkes, you probably misunderstood me. You say in your presentation that the increased demand for office space is linked to rising rental rates. That can't be. It's impossible. There can't be an increase in the demand for space as a result of an increase in rental costs. There's something illogical in what you're telling us. And yet that's in your presentation.

[Mike Hawkes]

Mr. Chair, in this section of the estimates we're referring to inflationary pressure, price pressures, and volume pressures. If we have a situation where a lease has expired and we're replacing it, even if we stay in the same site, there is often an increase related to that, based on the lease market and the conditions in that particular location at that time. So what we're calling a “price pressure” there is a difference in a rental rate on the renewal of that lease. If we change from a particular location to a new location, again, the market rental rate may be larger in the new location and that's the increase we're talking about.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Let's say that more or less answers my question. That means that, at some point, you leave certain premises because you consider them too expensive, and you relocate elsewhere, while continuing to pay the costs of those premises until the lease has expired.

[Mike Hawkes]

No, there isn't any situation I can think of where we leave a lease unless there is an extremely serious health situation before the lease has expired.

[John McBain]

That's correct.

Mr. Chair, what we will do is look at the rate we have for the lease and we will assess the market and the market capacity. Quite often our clients are looking for large blocks of space, so we know whether or not that exists in the market. We will either seek to negotiate directly with a landlord in that case or go to the market for a competitive solution. When we do that, we can quite often encounter an increase in rate.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That's fine, thank you.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Is there any time left, Mr. Chairman? May I use it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

It's the view of the chair that the first opening rounds are party rounds, and subsequent rounds, while allocated to members and parties, are members' rounds, so sharing.... There is a minute. Are members okay with her taking the minute?

Okay, Madame Bourgeois, go ahead. There's one minute.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I realize the real property issue is extremely important. In the last Parliament, we studied the sale of seven federal government properties. At the time, I asked officials to provide our committee with a strategic plan. I wanted them to explain to us which properties were for sale and to tell us why, what the problems with those properties were. I wanted them to give us estimates of the amounts that would bring in and whether it was more costly to keep those properties than to sell them.

Strategic planning also involves time and performance indicators. We never obtained those figures, which raises all kinds of questions and assumptions about the sale of those properties. Mr. Chairman, I'm taking the opportunity today to ask you whether it is possible for you to put pressure on our officials. They know very well what strategic planning is. I know that represents an enormous amount of work, but it's clear. That would enable members to get an accurate picture and to see, in the budget, where the $1.4 billion surplus generated by the sale of the properties went.

Our NDP colleague is right: these people sold properties for $1.4 billion, and now they're asking us for $111 or $117 million. Where did that $1.4 billion go? With that amount, they should be able to solve their property problems. Gentlemen, we want to know whether you can submit to us, not plans and priorities, which are not the same thing, but strategic planning. We need something clear. In that way, my colleagues and I would be able to know when those properties will be sold, what kind of yield that will generate and where the search for new space stands.

We need to know what will happen on the Gatineau side. You have an obligation to ensure that 25% of federal properties are located there. Do you understand? Ultimately, that could be liquidated.

I don't know if I have to introduce an official motion. What should I do, Mr. Chairman? I don't have the experience.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

No, at this point I think the witnesses and your colleagues have caught the drift of your issue, and it may be that in the near future we should seek to test the department with a test case, an example, a case of a sell-off of a building, and scrutinize how the decision was made and the financial results of that sale. That might prove to be an interesting exercise.

There seems to be an appetite to look into this more closely. I know you're not in a position today to justify or to deal with any one particular case history, but Madame Bourgeois, if you like, this is a subject we could take up very quickly at the steering committee, and we could invite the department in collaboration with the committee to select a case history. Maybe it will be uncomfortable, maybe it won't, but we will perhaps jointly agree on a case history and walk through that as a test exercise of scrutinizing one sale.

We can refer this to the steering committee now, and we'll be prepared to act on it at an early, convenient date. If that would be acceptable, then there would be no need to move a motion right now.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

If I can just add—

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Keep in mind that your round expired a long time ago, and I know how ardent you are in pursuit of the public interest here.

You are, of course, at liberty at any time to provide a notice of motion, but I think colleagues understand where you're coming from and where you want to go.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

All right. We're going to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

We'll pause there on that issue and we'll go to Mr. Anders for a five-minute round.

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few comments with regard to some of the things that have happened.

With regard to Madame Bourgeois' potential motion, I would prefer that it be dealt with in the committee as a whole as opposed to a steering committee. I just don't like more meetings, to be honest, Mr. Chair, so if she wishes to bring forward a motion, have at it. I think it is a better way to go about it.

In terms of my questions at hand, either witness can answer.

One of my colleagues, Mr. Gourde, asked which departments would be interested in acquiring more space, and you mentioned Health Canada, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, Revenue Canada, Public Safety, and Citizenship. They were the five. They were the top of the list.

I'm particularly interested with regard to public safety. You may tell me that is a question I have to ask Public Safety, and if you do, I have to accept that, but I'm curious as to whether or not you can give me more details about what buildings or moneys public safety is looking for and if you have any details with regard to the assets they currently hold.

[John McBain]

We have that information. I don't have it with me for this meeting, but I think your initial assumption is correct in terms of why. That's their program. We are a service arm. We respond to approvals from Treasury Board and the funding that comes to us to provide them with the space, but we can provide you with information about where they are located and what buildings they currently occupy.

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

You don't know, off the top of your head, if any of those are located here in the national capital region, do you?

[John McBain]

Certainly some of them are, yes, but in terms of the growth, one of the things that happens to us is that we are required to cash manage the growth that comes to us as well. We also need to respond to the specific requirements that clients bring to us in terms of the growth they have been approved for.

How much of that is particularly in the NCA versus other locations? I would need to get back to the committee, and I'd be happy to do so.

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Off the top of your head, do you have any knowledge with regard to buildings they hold in the area and whether or not they're owned by the government or rented privately?

[John McBain]

It's a mix.

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Do you have an idea of how many buildings we're looking at, roughly?

[John McBain]

In terms of the entire portfolio, that is a challenge, because there are many pieces to the Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada portfolio. I wouldn't want to speculate and mislead the committee, so I'd prefer to provide that information in detail.