No.
Evidence of meeting #36 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #36 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:10 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
No.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
You know, my Cape Breton mom always said that you have two things in your life: your name and your integrity.
This is a very sincere question. Sometimes we ask people to swear on the Bible for their testimony. Would you swear on your family name that you always acted with the highest integrity in your dealings as minister?
9:10 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Well, although I appreciate what you're asking me--and don't take this the wrong way--I'm somewhat insulted that I feel I should even have to do this.
9:10 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
But yes, I do swear.
You obviously remember the circumstances under which I came into politics; it was sort of an accident, if you want. I thought, and still believe, that given my professional background as a banker and as a businessperson, the match at Public Works actually was a good one, to be fairly honest with you. I think if you asked the people that I work with over there, they would say objectively that we were a good match. I let them do their job; I did mine, but I was aware of what was going on. We had a two-way dialogue.
I think the best example is how we executed the real estate transaction. We worked hand in hand with the department and we executed, I think, as I said, a very good transaction for taxpayers and demonstrated that a minister can work with the department in a productive way.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Holder.
Mr. Martin, you have eight minutes. If you would, toward the end of your eight minutes, look toward the chair, I'd appreciate it.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Mr. Fortier, you're here really because the restoration of our beloved West Block has turned into a multi-billion dollar fiasco, and this isn't the only project undertaken during your watch where we're still mopping up. There seems to be a pattern of meddling and tampering and allegations of political interference on some of the most major files that you were associated with.
We're here to talk about the West Block fiasco, first of all, but how can you not see the impropriety, or at least the appearance of conflict, when Sauvé pays a well-connected Conservative lobbyist $140,000 and then conveniently runs into Nolin's assistant in a restaurant over lunch, and, shortly after, the contract is amended so profoundly that only Sauvé could win the job?
If we don't connect the dots there, as MPs we're not doing our job, because this has all the appearances of impropriety, and frankly, no one can believe.... And we're left with the results. We have the tangible problem to cope with now because of the way it was handled and--I would say with all due respect--mismanaged, or worse, under your watch.
There's a second thing I'd like to ask about. We had to learn through a labour relations tribunal about the two bureaucrats you fired. You forced Mr. Tipple to allow RBC, your current employer, to get this contract regarding the sale of the buildings, and then you fired these two guys because Tipple saw you talking to Byers and was about to turn you in, or at least report this. All of a sudden, they get fired. The courts have called this a sham and a travesty and have given them millions of dollars in settlement. So frankly, you're costing us a lot of money, Mr. Fortier, even long after your brief tenure as a senator is over.
The third thing I'd like to draw your attention to is today's Ottawa Citizen and this massive front-page story talking all about this huge IT contract, which you steered away from this man--who was probably the front-runner--and steered toward CGI, with whom you had a business relationship. The minister himself, the public works minister, was connected to CGI.
Frankly, your brief tenure as public works minister is just riddled with really inappropriate behaviour, and because you were in the Senate, we couldn't drag you before this committee to ask you these questions. I wonder why the Prime Minister, if he wanted a special representative from Montreal in his cabinet, did not just invite you into his cabinet, the way they invited Stéphane Dion into that cabinet. You don't have to be an MP to be a cabinet minister, but they stuffed you in the Senate where we couldn't get at you. So we do appreciate your being here today, but it's been terribly frustrating, as the oversight committee for the Department of Public Works, to have a public works minister who's hiding behind the red chamber.
So what do you have to say about--
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I hate to interrupt, but I think as a point of clarification, just because it may expedite your questioning, Mr. Martin--through you, Mr. Chair--Mr. Fortier, when he was the minister, came to this committee regularly as minister, and so we never had any problem getting him before our committee.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
That's a point of clarification rather than a point of order.
Mr. Martin, do you wish to continue?
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I do.
We've learned a lot from David Rotor and Doug Tipple now that they had to go to a labour relations tribunal to fight their wrongful dismissal. We believe they were silenced because they are whistle-blowers. They told of a disturbing pattern about how your office was operating, especially in the context of the BMO and the RBC. That cost us a fortune too. Why didn't the low bidder get that job? Why did you intervene to make sure that the RBC got their piece of that pie?
9:15 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Well, there were a lot of questions in this and many statements, most of which the MP wouldn't dare make outside of Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
You know that very well.
9:15 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Let's go at them one by one, starting from the back.
First of all, I thank the MP for reminding everybody that I had been here. Clearly you don't understand the Constitution, because if you did, you'd understand that a senator can actually be in cabinet, which I was for over two and a half years.
9:15 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Second of all, with respect to the sale of the buildings, you suggested that I fired two individuals. Again, if you understood the first thing about the executive power in being a minister, you'd understand the only employees a minister has, Mr. Martin, are the employees in his office. None of the employees of a department, nor consultants, which these two individuals were, report to the minister. They report to the deputy minister, who is basically the CEO of the department and decides everything that relates to their employment. The minister doesn't do that, as you well know.
As I indicated to Madame Bourgeois--
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
A minister shouldn't be chatting with the director of the bids, either.
9:15 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, can I--
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Mr. Rotor testified in his tribunal that he reported to the legal department that you were chatting with Byers while Byers was the bidder--a well-connected Tory, by the way, Mr. Byers, representing BMO.
How inappropriate is that for the minister himself to be chatting to the director of the bid in a competition over the sale of public assets?
9:15 a.m.
Former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Mr. Martin, let me finish. I'll answer your questions, and then I'm sure you'll have more questions for me.
As I indicated to Madame Bourgeois, the RFP that went out provided that we could hire up to two banks. The reason the deputy and I wanted to keep that as an option, Mr. Martin, is we knew the transaction would be north of $1.5 billion to $1.6 billion. It is very common in these types of transactions, Mr. Martin, for companies or governments to hire in more than one bank--very common.
The deputy minister had a committee--on which I did not, obviously, sit--that met all of the banks interested in working for the government and ranked them from one to.... I don't know how many showed up at this pitch. It was one to something. One was BMO, two was RBC, and I don't know who the others were.
We had kept the ability, we wanted to have that room, to have two banks, so we chose two banks, Mr. Marshall and I. This was not done in order to give RBC or BMO a leg-up. They had won the right to be one and two during the pitches they had done in front of this committee set up by the deputy, Mr. Martin.