Evidence of meeting #47 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Our committee has looked at it. You intend to hire 4,000 new prison guards. Where does that factor into your attrition?
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Allow me to continue. He's made another of a number of statements. They weren't understatements; they were overstatements.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Mr. Chair, how is it, in this age of supercharged debate...? How do we go from my saying and questioning the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who said that the attrition rate of 11,000 is wrong, that it's only 1,100...? I question that, and now my honourable friend is saying I'm demonizing him.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
You're trying to cut off the legs from underneath him. First you starve his budget, and then you won't give him the tools he needs to do his job. And when he comes up with contradictory numbers, you guys go ape. You go crazy trying to vilify him.
But I only asked you one question, and that is whether your office has done a detailed estimate of the costs associated with the Truth in Sentencing Act and an estimate of the costs associated with other changes to the Criminal Code. It's relevant; it's pertinent. I say it's going to add to the deficit, not help you solve the deficit. How are you going to hire 4,000 new prison guards and build $2 billion worth of jails when you're trying to balance the budget?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
I know on a number of occasions, because I sit beside him in the House of Commons, that the Minister of Public Safety has stood and has given a projected figure on what the estimated cost will be over the next four years.
Now, I'll go back to Hansard, if my colleague would like me to do that. Certainly we'll get those numbers that he's been using.
Mr. Chair, I'm trying to say that a vigorous debate on numbers is one thing—
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
But wildly contradictory testimony, sworn testimony by two people who I trust...and it's wildly contradictory. One has no axe to grind and is independent; the other is going into a federal election in which you want a majority, so you surely want to be able to tell people that within that four-year majority, you're going to be in the black, not in the red.
That's the only document you've circulated. Where's the PBO document that contradicts you? You didn't spread that around today.
He's independent. You're not. You're biased.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
As I said, hyperbole is one thing, and now trashing the document itself is document abuse, I suppose.
Mr. Chair, I questioned with data a figure of the PBO, and my friend seems to have taken that.... The PBO is not the Pope; he is an individual who works for the library, and he questions—
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
—a number that has been produced by the public service.
So let's just leave that. Let's just say, as I tried to say at the start, that I have a healthy disagreement with the PBO. Is that vilifying him? I have people who question my statements every day. They don't vilify me; they're just saying that they question.
Let me deal with that last comment.
The PBO has a very distinctly singular position that is at odds not just with the government but with all of the economic forecasters and with external forecasters such as the IMF and the OECD.
Now, Mr. Chair, just on the—
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Mr. Minister, I'm sorry. Mr. Martin has gone way over his time, and I know you did not want to—
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
I didn't notice. I was enjoying the exchange so much that—
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I don't want to extend the religious analogy too much further, but I'll just point out that we have only one “Cannan” in this committee—
11:50 a.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
the Chair: —and of course I anticipate that members will be looking forward to our second hour, with the presentations by the churches.
Mr. Regan, you have five minutes.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Clearly, Mr. Chairman, canon law doesn't apply here.
Mr. Chairman, this is through you to the minister.
Minister, your government created the Parliamentary Budget Office with great fanfare. You appointed Mr. Page as the Parliamentary Budget Officer, yet now you seem to be trying to discredit him. That gives me great concern. You won't give him the information he needs, as he's pointed out time and again.
Let's get back to this question of the attrition. Over the past five years, you've actually added over 33,000 more civil servants, more positions. The PBO is talking about the attrition of positions—not how many people actually retire each year, but how many fewer positions there are.
Surely, in the report on plans and priorities of departments, when they're talking about, and when in your budget planning you're talking about, attrition, you're not talking about what happens if Bob and Sue and John leave. You're talking about absolute numbers of positions that are reduced and the reduction overall of the civil service.
I think you're trying to fudge it here today by suggesting two different things. You're not actually responding to what he's saying.
Are the reports on plans and priorities of your government important, worthwhile documents or not? In those documents, those 10 agencies and departments that he's talked about can't identify more than 1,133 positions that they'll reduce. So are they important documents? Are they valuable? Should we ignore them? Are they useful to the public at all?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Mr. Chair, not only did we create this office for the PBO and the position, but not that long ago we increased, at his request, the amount of funds. So please, let's not say that the tools are not there.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
There was an increase of funds, and, Mr. Chairman, we have increased the numbers of departments, agencies, and organizations, by a factor of about 70, that are subject not just to the PBO but to the Auditor General, which the former Liberal government questions—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Then on attrition—Mr. Chair, I'll say this again, as clearly as I can—when we talk about attrition, and we've always been clear about this, we're talking about the number of people who leave the federal public service in a given year.