Government Operations Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you to all of you for trying to bring the voice of reason into this debate. We appreciate both the tone and the content of your presentation. But you can see from Mr. Warkentin's intervention what we're up against every time we try to have that debate. All of their bills and all of their arguments seem to be based on the basest instinct of revenge. They would have the public believe--and believe me they advertise in our ridings; they carpet bomb our ridings with these leaflets that say Pat Martin wants Clifford Olson to be out on the streets again. They want to shape policy based on the most extreme examples they can find and that way garner support.

Let me ask you to elaborate a little bit more on the American experience. We now know from 30 years of empirical evidence that if tougher sentences and more people in prison meant safer streets, then the Americans would have the safest streets in the world, because they incarcerate at the highest rate of anybody in the world. Can you perhaps spend the few minutes we have expanding on what you're seeing from the United States and the prison reform movement there?

[Lorraine Berzins]

I think there's a lot of data and a lot of people looking at it closely who are concluding that it's been a terrible waste of money. Several states are finding that they can't afford it any more. When they've compared jurisdictions that have incarcerated fewer people with jurisdictions that have incarcerated more, they have not seen that incarceration has led to less crime. As a matter of fact, it's been the opposite in some of the states they've compared. So people were all in favour of it for very noble reasons of wanting to reduce crime, which is what we want to do, but they've concluded that it was a mistake and that it is much more important and better for the whole of society to use options other than putting people in prison.

I'm sorry that I didn't understand what you said, but I think there are some victims of crime who certainly feel the anguish of what has happened to them and may really need certain things and need to have carefully considered what their own needs are. But there are many victims of crime who, in wanting the same thing, are finding that what matters is not a sentence of incarceration, and especially not across the board as a rule for all people based on the word in the Criminal Code that is used to describe the offence; it's the human thing that has happened and what needs to be done to repair it that matters. At a time when we see that the money is really needed for other things like victim services, several victim service groups are saying this isn't going to help us; this is taking money away from what we need most.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

If I could bring it down to a narrow specific point in the budget--

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have one minute, Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

--in the minute I have left, the youth gang prevention funds are being cut right across the country. Four of them are being cut in my riding alone. For the cost of keeping one person in prison for one year, one of these programs could continue. Are you aware of this youth gang prevention program, and do you have a view on whether that money should be renewed or extended?

[Lorraine Berzins]

I'm aware that there are some very good initiatives that have been effective. It's important to work at the grassroots level of the community on this issue. Families of victims of youth gang violence are very close to each other and sometimes even to the families of the offenders. Approaches that really start from what victims most want and need and that consult communities on what they want to see happen in their community are the ones that are the most effective.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Martin, I want to thank you for your time.

Witnesses, I want to thank you for your time. I apologize for the shrinkage of time. As you can see, another committee is going to take over this room immediately after us.

Just so colleagues know, we are inviting Madame Bourgeois' witness for the afternoon of the 15th, Tuesday. She's a witness who has been on the agenda for a while on this very subject.

I know Madam Coady wants to raise another issue.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I just want to make sure that during committee business on Thursday we will have some time for the motion I tabled quite some time ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

All right. We can set aside a few minutes for that.

Thank you. We're adjourned.