Evidence of meeting #168 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transition.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
That's an interesting comment. I've talked to bureaucrats who told me they had a concierge service to help vets transition into the public service. When I asked if they told the vets about it, and if they gave them the pertinent paperwork, the bureaucrats said they hadn't, because it would involve too much paperwork. I think this sums up government entirely.
You mentioned the minimum qualifications. You've been overseas, and it would seem that the training you had should count for a lot more than—no offence to anyone who may be listening—a history degree or a Bachelor of Science or something, but apparently it doesn't, and that's an impediment for you and a lot of other vets applying for public service jobs.
Are there any other qualification levels that are thrown up to, perhaps, block vets from accessing public service jobs? Do the people making the hiring decisions sometimes use these qualifications to steer toward people they want as opposed to hiring vets?
Ms. Lowther, could you comment on that as well?
As an Individual
When I see internal postings now, they still have essential elements and experience, and they still say “or relevant military experience”. But how would you take relevant military experience, say, in Kandahar or Sarajevo, and apply that when they want knowledge of databases specific to the employment or specific knowledge of legislative authorities and enforcement domestically? You obviously can't have that experience unless you've already been in that job or gone to school for that job. You may have other experience enforcing other types of legislative authorities internationally—narcotics or something in Panjwai, Kandahar—but you don't have it domestically.
I don't know if they do it deliberately as a barrier. It definitely seems it's a barrier—taking what you've done and making it fit through this, even if it's just a filter, to apply on a government web page, and if it doesn't get through the filters for the keywords....
Chair and Co-founder, VETS Canada
It seems, from the feedback we have received from veterans who have questioned why they were not chosen for positions, that the answers they get are very vague, as I mentioned. Usually they're told that they just weren't a good fit. They're not given a very specific answer. In a few instances we have heard from our veterans that they found out after the fact that somebody else was given the job, and it was clear that they were the favoured candidate from the beginning. I think there are issues with the hiring managers not wanting to hire veterans.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
This is something we've heard from other witnesses. It's not just specific to veterans; it's throughout the public service. We've heard it quite often.
Chair and Co-founder, VETS Canada
I think Mr. Zimmermann alluded earlier to the cultural shift. It is a difficult transition when you're coming from the military to the public service. Military life is much more structured, and we have had experience with veterans who have obtained employment, not with the public service and not through priority hiring, but they found it very difficult because of the cultural shift. I think that—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'm almost out of time, so can I ask the two of you a quick question?
Should we have some form of reverse onus for the departments around why they're not hiring the applicant who's a veteran?
LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw
That's already done, Mr. Chair. That's already in the process right now. The Public Service Commission is responsible for overseeing and monitoring the process. In our opinion, that's not the challenge. At the end of the day, the issue is why that hiring manager should hire a veteran. It's not a political issue.
LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw
Every party supports it. It's about getting the individual hired. It's an implementation issue. It has been for the last eight years.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Yes, but we're hearing the qualifications are being used to steer toward other candidates.
LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw
That's a fact, and the policy says it shouldn't. The policy is clear that if you meet the qualifications, competencies and skills, you should be the one who is picked. That's what we developed in 2011.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Is it more about how the job offer is written, that the qualifications aren't the barrier...?
LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw
It is more about how the hiring manager, at the end of the day, gets to say no about you when they phone back to the Public Service Commission to say, “I didn't pick Mr. McCauley for the following reasons.” That's where it ends.
If there were targets, it would be very different. Ask the Department of Veterans Affairs how many veterans are in the department. Between 2012 and 2014 there were only 75 veterans in a department of 3,000.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
We'll now go to Madam Laverdière for seven minutes, please.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm a former public servant, although I was in the foreign service. My definition may not be traditional, but for me, everybody who serves the country is a public servant. Anyway, that's my point of view.
I'll switch to French now. I prefer “public servant” in English, because it sounds better than “fonctionnaire”.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I have many questions to ask. The first is for Ms. Lowther and Mr. Semianiw.
I represent a downtown Montreal riding with a lot of homelessness, a lot of homeless people. We know that situation in itself is an impediment to getting a job. You work with veterans who are homeless or are about to be. I assume that complicates the situation.
Do you think the government is doing enough for veterans in terms of housing assistance and social housing?
Chair and Co-founder, VETS Canada
Thank you very much for the question.
My honest opinion is no; I think we could do more. When it comes to homelessness among veterans, there's a lot more we could do. Rental subsidies would be a great first step when it comes to housing specifically, but you're right that the homelessness does present an additional challenge, especially as it pertains to moving on to meaningful employment.
The short answer is no. I think the government could do more when it comes to homelessness among veterans.
LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw
I think the issue is very simple. Right now, the process is too complex. If we add to that veterans who are suffering from mental health problems or other issues, the system gets even more complicated. It becomes impossible to make sense of it, primarily because it is a very complex system.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
That brings me to a comment you made, Mr. Zimmermann. You talked about bureaucratic impediments and difficulties in the relationship with the Department of National Defence and the Department of Veterans Affairs. Could you elaborate on that?
Executive Director, National Institute of Disability Management and Research
Sure, I'd be happy to.
In my view, there needs to be probably a significant change, I would argue, in the roles between DND and Veterans Affairs in this regard. That is what I referred to earlier with respect to the whole question of triaging. I want to give you an example, perhaps, in a very similar world across the country, which is the workers' compensation world around the globe. For an individual who acquires an impairment of some sort, whether it's mental or physical, within four weeks generally a determination is made whether there is a significant likelihood of the individual being able to go back to work or not. Based on that, an intervention strategy is developed, which has an expectation of return to work, rather than letting individuals languish at DND and then finally and ultimately transitioning them into the Department of Veterans Affairs.
If you do not have an early intervention strategy then of course all of the challenges start to accumulate, which my colleagues here on the panel have referred to, in terms of psychosocial compounding, depression and anxiety, and ultimately you head down the path of poverty, homelessness and addiction. We see that almost 30% of Canadians living in poverty are individuals with disabilities, and a good chunk of them are individuals who have come out of the armed forces and were never successfully reintegrated.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I apologize if these are personal comments, but I want to say that we see this in Montreal, especially in my riding, Laurier—Sainte-Marie.
It makes me think of a report published in 2015 by the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman. It said that the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman and the Veterans Affairs Ombudsman were of the opinion that the Canadian Armed Forces were in the best position to decide whether a medical release was attributable to service or not under Bill C-27. I would like to know everyone's opinion and whether you agree with that.
