Government Operations Committee on May 6th, 2019

[Gregory Lick]

Yes. In years past, groups like Canada Company had awards, annual awards to promote and market those companies that were doing superb jobs at hiring veterans, promoting the hiring of veterans, all of that. That is another tool in the tool box that can get at making not only the private sector but also the public sector more aware of the value of veterans. That is definitely one tool in the tool box that can help get the outcome we want.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

I'll turn to you, Mr. Dalton. When we've reached the point of meeting with the ombudsman, it usually means that things aren't going very well.

According to the document containing your opening remarks, only 42.8% of the applications submitted by veterans were accepted. That's not even half the applications.

Were applications rejected simply because the skills provided didn't match the desired skills? If so, how do we help our military members or veterans upgrade their skills?

[Craig L. Dalton]

We have access to this data, but not to the information needed to answer your question. I don't know why over half the applications were rejected.

However, that's the type of information we need to get at and feed back to veterans. I know you've heard from previous witnesses about the lack of transparency in the process. In a number of cases, individuals that applied and were not selected didn't get feedback that would have helped them then prepare for a future competition. It's a very good question, but again, we have access to the general data, but as an office, we have not looked into what is behind that data.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you. This seems to be a fairly major issue.

Mr. Lick, I'll turn to you, because something written in the document containing your opening remarks caught my attention: “However, applicants still face significant wait times. As a result, more creative solutions may need to come to the fore...”

I imagine that you already have a good idea of what these creative solutions should be. What do you have in mind?

[Gregory Lick]

I've already mentioned one of the creative solutions in terms of a skills translator that would provide information for both hiring managers, veterans or military members. The other one we talked about was the idea that, as soon as people are given the decision that they will be released, we should not wait the six months it takes for the final release. Get them on the priority list immediately. That is an easy solution, I believe.

The other one comes back to Mr. Dalton's recommendations with respect to making sure we know what outcomes we want to achieve and making sure we have targets. We should manage this like a program in government where you have a performance measurement framework and all the managerial tools you need to manage a program properly.

We should also make sure we know who is accountable for this, who is responsible. If you distribute responsibility across government or a large organization, then nobody has responsibility. We need to make sure we very clearly delineate who has responsibility. Making it accountable in one department could be one of those solutions.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have one last question. I would like you to try to provide as brief an answer as possible, since I have only one minute left.

How do military members transition to civilian life and end up at Veterans Affairs Canada to benefit from the department's programs? Are they assisted throughout the process, or do they need to sit in front of their computer and browse different sites such as the Service Canada site?

[Craig L. Dalton]

Based on what we've heard from veterans, and what I see you've received in terms of witness testimony, it's more the case of the latter. But again, I know there are many initiatives under way to address and get at that. The Canadian Armed Forces transition group is one example of that, but your second option is the one that most people experience, I believe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ratansi, you have seven minutes.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, and thank you for being here.

I'm trying to process the information we have received from the veterans themselves, from Veterans Affairs and what we're hearing from you. I think I'll catch up on what Mr. McCauley was asking you.

Who is accountable? There is the Canadian Armed Forces, there is the veterans, and then there is the public service. In your report it says the Canadian Armed Forces is in the best position to determine whether a veteran is disabled—I'm going to park a question on that—but the Public Service Commission is the one that determines the eligibility for that veteran to work.

Now, if you pass the buck to the Public Service Commission and the Public Service Commission has no base for translating or harmonizing those skill sets.... We've heard from veterans many times over. You made a statement that you're easing the transition of the injured workers to the public service. How are you doing it? What are the concrete steps you are taking to do it?

[Gregory Lick]

In terms of service attribution, as I said, that has been given to Veterans Affairs to adjudicate, so that is the decision of the government. In fact, what I also referenced was how we are making that process easier. The armed forces and Veterans Affairs are working much more closely now on various issues to make that process easier. One concern is just to make sure that there is easy and almost real-time access to medical information so that the adjudicators can adjudicate properly. That makes it easier.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That was a concern raised by some of the veterans. When they are released from the army and they are released based on injuries, they go to Veterans Affairs and Veterans Affairs' doctors have a different assessment. They are down in the black hole. These are the people who have served, who have been injured during service, yet they cannot get the information or the respect that they deserve. They can't even transition into civilian life.

How have you reduced the problems between the assessments of the Canadian Armed Forces' doctors and the Veterans Affairs' doctors?

[Gregory Lick]

One part of the process where we hope to see improvement—and we both recommended this to the department—is that all the benefits, all the adjudication that's necessary, should be done before the veterans release so that ultimately those delays that we're seeing now should be reduced to almost zero.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

When was this implemented?

[Gregory Lick]

It has yet to be implemented.

That is one initiative that's within the transition group's program right now, but they have yet to implement that. We should see that later on in their plan.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Of the armed forces personnel who are released, 33% are injured. Do you have any statistics, does anybody have any statistics on how many are employed, how many are homeless, how many have issues? Does anybody keep track of that?

[Craig L. Dalton]

I'm not aware of anybody in government who has that sort of information.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Shouldn't it be one of your recommendations because these are the people who are falling through the cracks? They may have mental health issues. We talk about financial security for them and it appears that nobody wants to take charge of it. Once they leave the army, they feel they are on their own.

Who, in your opinion, should be accountable for that?

[Craig L. Dalton]

I'll take a stab at that.

When veterans release, they release for all sorts of different reasons and they're in a wide variety of situations. Many veterans don't require much assistance when they release. For example, I believe the veteran population has been pegged at around 600,000. VAC clients would total about 165,000. So for a large number of veterans who transition, the transition goes well.

I believe the number of individuals who have responded to “life after service” surveys expressing difficulty with transition would be about 17%. It would seem that for those individuals who are experiencing difficulty as they release and as they transition, ideally, we as a government would be aware of that. We'd be tracking those individuals up until the point that they're in a position where they may not have to avail themselves of government programs and services, or they're availing themselves of programs and services but don't require any detailed support. That's the place clearly we would all like to see government going.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That's the place where you do not want them falling through the cracks, because a lot of them have fallen through the cracks.

One of the suggestions they also made was that there are a lot of opportunities for injured veterans to work in the military area because there are a lot of civilian administrative responsibilities. Why aren't they being used? Why are they being sent out of the whole envelope of the Canadian Armed Forces? Does anybody know?

[Gregory Lick]

I don't have the numbers in front of me, in terms of how many of the ill and injured members are coming back into the department. That's something that we could likely follow up with you on. Certainly, just reviewing the statistics before this committee, back in 2017-18, which was the last time statistics were available, at least recently, the military members who were transitioning made up between 40% and 50% of the hiring that the Department of National Defence did. While I don't have the statistics right in front of me in terms of ill and injured members, that is something we could likely provide to the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Colleagues, we have another panel that will be joining us at 4:30, but we will have time, I believe, for two three-minute interventions.

We'll start with Monsieur Deltell and go, finally, to Monsieur Drouin.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome everyone to your parliamentary committee.

I have two specific questions, and I want you to answer them one after the other.

First, do you think that a pre-retirement program should start 6 months, 12 months or 18 months before the end of the military members' work?

[Craig L. Dalton]

This is more for Mr. Lick to speak to, but the approach that is being taken now in CAF and DND reflects a recognition that it needs to start as early as possible. The day they put a uniform on everybody knows that at some point they will be releasing. The sooner that preparation can begin, the better. Certainly, our interaction with the transition group is—

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I need a number. Is it six, 12 or 18 months?

[Craig L. Dalton]

It should be as soon as individuals enrol. I think that preparation needs to be throughout an individual's career.