Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was paid.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
We will have an opportunity for your third question, but it will have to come in a subsequent round.
Mr. McCauley, for five minutes please.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I want to go back to the implementation.
What would have been the risks of not pulling the trigger and going through with phase two despite the evidence or information at the time that we weren't ready for it? We've heard from the minister and yourself, “No, we couldn't have delayed it”. What were the risks of delaying it?
3:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
We believed that the risk of delaying it was greater than not delaying it.
Do you want to speak to that?
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
What were the risks? Not what you believe are the risks; what were the risks, please?
3:15 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes, the risks were running two systems. The risk of running two systems in parallel is that, for example, if someone transfers from one government department to another, then you have no ability to transfer their pay file. The longer we ran two systems the more of a problem that would have been.
Also, we didn't have the compensation staff to do it at the time, because all of them were fully employed on the new system, or were getting ready to transfer.
Those are the two most significant risks. Once we had pulled the trigger in January, unless there were a significant catastrophic problem with the software itself, we almost had to go ahead with the second wave.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay.
One of my colleagues asked earlier if you had ever briefed the minister or the cabinet that we should not proceed with this system, and your comment was that you didn't recall and you didn't know.
How is it that on something this big—
3:15 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
No, I said that I didn't recall whether or not we had specifically told the minister that the union had objected or had concerns, because we brief the minister sometimes two and three times a week on four or five different files. We do that week after week after week, so I don't recall every specific piece of advice I've ever given to the minister.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay.
Did you ever advise her that this was going to be a big problem, or was it just the information you had, “Ah, it's going to be a pain but we can muddle through.”?
3:15 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I don't think we used the words that we would “muddle through”. We felt that—
3:15 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
—the considered risks were that, on balance, we should go forward. We did outline that this was not going to be, in all cases, a smooth process.
I'll go back to what the deputy said. Paying people relies on somebody getting a letter of offer, then signing the letter of offer. Then it relies on the HR professional to submit that to the Phoenix system, and then it relies on an individual pay person in the Phoenix system to enter it into the software, so there are lots of different players.
I think that of the 589 people who've indicated they weren't paid in the last pay period, only 210 are in the system, goes to the extent of the issue. It's a number of different steps that have to be taken to get somebody paid, so it's really about getting all of those pieces from end to end, as the deputy said, working efficiently. That's where our biggest challenges are today, getting it all working from end to end.
3:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
If I may, Mr. Chair, I just want to be absolutely clear on this.
We did recommend to the minister to go ahead. That's clear. I only want to make sure it's very clear. It was our recommendation.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay, thank you.
We've heard today a lot of stuff coming out in the press—a gentleman not getting paid and that when he finally gets paid, he gets overpaid. Have there been any large inadvertent payments made, or caught just before they were issued? We heard rumours of huge amounts of possible overpayments.
3:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes, there have been, and we have a process to get them back. So the answer is yes.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
How much is at risk here? I've heard figures in the millions.
3:15 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Accounting, Banking and Compensation, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I don't recall every one, but we do have stop-gap measures in the systems that will not issue payments. Some could be...not $1 million, but some could be legitimate with severance payments going into the tens of thousands of dollars. But we do have stop-gap measures in both Phoenix and in the standard payment system that will stop a large payment from going through. It gets withdrawn and we look to see if it's legitimate or not.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
What was the highest amount of an inadvertent payment?
3:15 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Accounting, Banking and Compensation, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Sorry, I don't recall.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
No? Okay. Very good.
The Prime Minister said he's taking personal responsibility to ensure that the system gets fixed and he's tasked the Clerk of the Privy Council with fixing the issues—obviously working with you.
What is the Clerk of the Privy Council doing, and what role is the Prime Minister playing in that work?
3:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
We have been keeping the Privy Council Office aware of every step in the last month. We've been working together and they've been supporting us in many ways.
What you have to remember, I think, is that this is not a PSPC issue solely. It is an enterprise-wide transformation, a Government of Canada issue, and my colleagues are totally seized with that. It is their employees who are having issues, after all, so it's not just us. It's the collective of the Government of Canada who are concerned and acting at every step of the process.
July 28th, 2016 / 3:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome and thank you for being here today.
This is really about a crisis of confidence. As far as I'm concerned, the main goal of this meeting is to come up with solutions. We want reassurance that we will find concrete solutions to the problems affecting employees. That is my number one concern.
I'm sure we'll get a full review of what happened. You already touched on that. Pointing fingers will definitely not solve anything today. I agree with the committee chair's recommendation that we shouldn't politicize the evidence. Unfortunately, I see the members on the other side of the table playing politics with this instead of focusing on solutions and the positive side.
I'd like you to talk about short-term solutions. Some people have not been paid at all. You said that people need to report it if they haven't been paid, so that solutions can be found, because solutions do exist. The chart just passed around presents some priorities and solutions.
I want to explore the details of this. Some people have been waiting three months to be paid. I've heard that some people may have to wait up to nine months. Is that true, or are those just rumours? I see that some solutions do exist. I'd like you to elaborate on this and provide assurances that there will be no other problems in the short term. Tell me a little more about the solutions to reassure me.
I will likely have more questions after that.
3:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
In early June, when we learned about the growing number of problems, we decided that we had to provide employees with a process by which they could contact us directly, and we would then forward their requests to the departments, or else we would find a way to accelerate the process in certain critical cases.
That is why we set priorities for our work. I hope you'll be reassured to hear that if someone hasn't been paid, he doesn't have to wait. Ideally, he would speak to his manager and his department. If there's a problem and nothing happens, he could then contact us directly and we would take the necessary steps. If we have the information, we will move forward; otherwise, we will get the information from his department. There's a way for people to contact us and get money quickly, in addition to salary advances, which are available. This goes for people in the first category, in other words, priority one.
We've also put a process in place for people in the second category, or priority two, and that list is a little longer. At the same time, what's interesting is that we've confirmed with our colleagues at Service Canada that people going on parental leave, for example, don't have to wait to get the document they usually receive when they start their leave, the Record of Employment. They can submit a request directly to get their employment insurance benefits. They can still move forward while we are fixing the problem.
The other positive aspect has to do with the backlog, which is outlined in the document we handed out earlier. People who submitted transactions before Phoenix or who've been in the system for some time can look at this and know that their transactions will be resolved within a certain timeframe—
3:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
I'd like to interject.
Have the cases reported had any follow-up? If someone hasn't been paid for two or three weeks, for example, have cases like that been monitored from the beginning, to ensure that they're getting their pay or emergency pay in the meantime? Is anyone doing this kind of follow-up, or would that file end up in the pile with all the others? Is a supervisor or someone examining these kinds of files individually?
3:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you for your question.
We have done something about that. Every week, actually, on a daily basis, Ms. Di Paola sends our colleagues in finance all requests for emergency pay that we receive. She forwards them directly to the departments so that they know, if they're not already aware, that some of their employees have asked for emergency pay. Those payments can be issued in just a few days. We aren't leaving people in the lurch.