Government Operations Committee on July 28th, 2016

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I call the meeting to order. It's 2 p.m., and I believe we have everyone from the committee here.

Mr. McCauley, excuse me, if I could just make some opening remarks first, I'll get back to you, if that's all right, and then to Madam Ratansi.

First, welcome to everyone. I'm glad to see you back here. It's good to see you.

I was hoping we wouldn't see each other until September, but obviously this is a very important day for us. I want to remind all members that this is a special meeting, requested through Standing Order 106(4), and that it is also televised.

I would like to spend a couple of moments going over some procedural aspects of the meeting and how it will be conducted, and then we'll get into the meeting itself. Unlike our regular committee meetings, which are structured for two hours and only two hours, this special meeting has no predetermined adjournment time. Therefore, we will be sitting for as long as members around this table have questions or comments to make. We will adjourn only when all members have exhausted all of their questions, comments, or observations.

Our first order of business is that we need to agree as a committee that we wish to examine the Phoenix pay system. That was included in the letter of request under Standing Order 106(4). We have to agree at this table that we want to go forward and examine the Phoenix pay system. Then, and only then, will this meeting continue.

We all know that Mr. Weir, for example, has a motion on notice that discusses potential witnesses. I suspect, although I do not know, that there will be other motions from the floor. You can make a motion from the floor—that is admissible—if there are motions pertaining to witnesses to come forward.

We have a number of officials in the gallery today. For the benefit of committee members, and perhaps for the members of the media who are in attendance, I want to let you know who will be in the gallery and will be available, if requested, to come forward to speak to this committee.

We have Donna Lackie, the national president of the Government Services Union; Marie Lemay, deputy minister, Public Services and Procurement; Rosanna Di Paola, associate assistant deputy minister of accounting, banking, and compensation; Gavin Liddy, associate deputy minister; and also Debi Daviau, president of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada. These officials are in the audience. If any of them are requested to come forward, they will be available if the committee so agrees.

Ladies and gentlemen, if a motion is presented, debate will begin on that motion. The normal rules of procedure will take place, that is to say that there is no time limit for debates, and speakers can speak more than once.

However, as chair, I would encourage you to please make your comments as succinct as possible. The longer we are debating motions, the longer it will take to potentially have witnesses before us. In the cases of motions that are requesting certain witnesses to appear, I think the witnesses will probably be fairly self-apparent as to why they are being asked to appear. I don't believe we need to spend an awful lot of time on debate, but that is strictly up to the members around this committee.

Also, I would strongly encourage members to try to avoid the blame game if possible, and I say this with all sincerity. We're all partisan animals around here. We can all go out and do our partisan hits with the media, but the reality is that this is a very serious problem. The aggrieved parties are the employees of the federal government. I think it serves no useful purpose for members of this committee to start blaming one another as to who did what and when did they do it.

I hope that we are of one mind. The purpose of this meeting is to certainly determine what went wrong, but more importantly the remedies to fix the problems. If we can focus on that, then hopefully we can all be part of the solution.

Finally, ladies and gentlemen, on a separate matter, after we conclude the special meeting, I would ask concurrence of the members around this table for an in camera five-minute meeting so our clerk can update us on future committee business.

That concludes my opening remarks.

Mr. McCauley, and Mr. Weir, you're on the list of speakers. I had recognized you first.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate your comments.

I'd like to put forward a motion:

That the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada appear before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates no later than August 5th 2016 on the issue of the government's failure to adequately implement the Phoenix Pay System; and that the meeting be televised.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

That concludes your motion?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

The motion is now up for debate. I will assemble a speakers list.

Mr. McCauley, you made the motion, so I'll ask you to speak to it, if you could, briefly, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Very briefly, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement is responsible for the Phoenix pay system. It is her department that is responsible for rolling out and looking after it. I think it's imperative that we have her here to discuss it with us, explain her plans on fixing the system, and how we're going to go forward with that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

Madam Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McCauley's motion is not unreasonable, but we have to be mindful that we have the deputy minister here today. In our motion in the July 25 letter that we sent, we asked the deputy minister to come. We need to hear first from the deputy minister as to what solutions have been.... We know the problems. Plenty of people have not been paid. We can hear from the people who are working, the bureaucrats who are working, and then we can hear from the minister later on, in September, because we need to figure out, as a committee, the time frame. We have other issues we are working on. We need to work with the deputy minister first, figure out what it is, and then as a committee come up with a solid plan.

I do not dispute that the minister has to come, but the minister coming will give the same answers as the deputy minister, will not help our case. I think it is important that if we want to solve this problem and not play political games, then we should get to listen to the deputy minister and then move forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Madam Ratansi, before I go to Mr. Weir, you mentioned the motion that you had contained in your letter. As I'm sure you're aware, the motion will have to be presented today.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you wish me to present the motion now?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

No, we're dealing with Mr. McCauley's motion. But before we can deal with what you would like to see, we would have to have that motion presented.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Fair enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Weir.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I would speak in favour of the motion. I think it's self-evident that we need to hear from the minister on the Phoenix pay system. I would note that the reason we're here today is that we recognize that this is an urgent crisis. I would disagree with Madam Ratansi that it would be reasonable to wait until September to hear from the minister.

In fact, Mr. Chair, I would note that the minister is in Ottawa today. I wonder if we might be able to ask her to testify to our committee this afternoon. I think if you were to canvass my Conservative colleagues, they would agree that if it's possible, it would be quite desirable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Weir, in response to your request, we're dealing with Mr. McCauley's motion, which I believe has a deadline of August 5. That is the motion we are debating and will ultimately vote upon. It is out of order to actually ask the minister to appear this afternoon. We'll deal with the motion as it was read.

Madam Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Just as a procedural matter, does the motion that I presented for July 25 come before Mr. McCauley's motion? I just want to clerk to clarify it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'll speak to that and ask the clerk to verify.

My understanding procedurally is that the motions at this meeting will be in the order that you were recognized by the chair. Mr. McCauley had his hand up first. I recognized him. If there are no more comments, we will vote on his motion.

You are the next individual, Madam Ratansi, whom I recognized. If you have a motion at that time, you can present it. We will proceed from there.

Are there further comments or questions on Mr. McCauley's motion?

Seeing none, I will call the question.

(Motion negatived)

Madam Ratansi, you now have the floor.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

In my letter to you, signed by four of the committee members, we asked that the committee hold a briefing with the Deputy Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada on the issues surrounding the Phoenix payroll system.

The motion is as follows:

That the committee hold a briefing with the Deputy Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada on the issues surrounding the Phoenix payroll system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

That is the motion.

You certainly can to speak to it, if you want to elaborate.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Well, I think we have a system that has its challenges. The deputy minister has been giving a weekly brief on what is happening with the system. Since the deputy minister and her assistants are very engaged with the system, they would be the right people to be able to give us an update on the resolution to the problems—whether things are moving the way they are, what resources they need, etc.—so they will be the right people to have as our witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Are there comments?

Mr. Weir.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Mr. Chair, I think all members of this committee would certainly be keen to have an opportunity to ask questions and a discussion with the deputy minister, but I also think the reason we've convened this meeting is to hear from a broader range of voices. As the chair mentioned at the outset, in addition to the deputy minister, there are other officials present. There are the presidents of the two largest federal public service unions in the room prepared to testify. So I would think that all members of the committee would want to hear from these witnesses and I would propose what I hope is a friendly amendment to include all of those witnesses named by the chair in this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We are now debating the amendment.

Madame Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm happy with the amendment and I'd be happy to entertain the amendment, and if we could combine the two, that would be fine with me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

All right.

Mr. McCauley.