Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was paid.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Sorry, you mean for the year 2015?
Absolutely, I can answer your question. I apologize. No, nobody has, and it's not a priority. We're really focused on getting people paid. That's what we're focused on. That will be the last priority for us.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Perfect.
The media obviously has been reporting very widely—we see them here today—on the personal stories of civil servants not being paid. A pregnant mother had to quit her job because she couldn't pay for her daughter's day care, etc. There are thousands of stories.
This mismanagement by big government has real life, day-to-day consequences. I have a very simple and blunt question. Who is taking responsibility for this personally, and in the real world who is going to get fired for this?
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The answer to your question is that right now we're taking it collectively, because we're absolutely focused on fixing it. We are spending very long days—a number of us—in making sure that we get people paid. After that we're committed to doing an evaluation, we're committed to looking at lessons learned. There's going to be the Auditor General, there are going to be a number of processes, and we will be able to answer your question at that point more substantially. At this point our efforts are solely focused on getting people paid.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'll ask at another committee meeting then.
We've heard before that it was ultimately Minister Foote's decision to implement the Phoenix pay system. Ministers do receive technical advice from civil servants obviously. What was your advice to the minister on going live with Phoenix?
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I was not in the position personally, but I can tell you that Minister Foote did receive the advice to roll out Phoenix for the February launch.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Oh yes, I was there, and the advice was to do the second phase.
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I'm trying to remember if it was prior to when I arrived. When I arrived, actually, the data had already been converted, because the 21st—
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
There were two portions. There was the February and the April...and we heard in committee from the President of the Treasury Board that unless we're 99% sure it's working, we're not going to go ahead. Which of the civil servants—and I assume it was you—advised Minister Foote that “We're ready, let's go”?
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I understand your question, but I want to clarify one thing. The date of the 21st is the date when the system was on, but the data conversion started way before that. The data conversion actually started at the beginning of April. But with the information that we had in April, I would have recommended to her to go to the second phase. I actually had conversations with the unions about this. We were at a stage where we had implemented the first wave.
The number of complaints we were getting—and we were monitoring this—was actually very low. I remember that even in May, when we were at this committee, I believe Minister Foote talked about the number of complaints we were getting. I think at the time we had only 77 that were unresolved, so that is what we were seeing at the time. As I said earlier, we expected to see see some and that we'd be able to address them. If I had been asked to make an official recommendation to her, I would have said, yes, the same way, but I did talk to the unions about our moving in that direction. Yes, I was really supportive of it.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay. Did you flag with the minister the possibilities of things like this occurring: “Here's a risk, do we go forward?” Or was it an unequivocal “Let's go”?
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Maybe I should turn to my colleague who was there during that whole transition step, because, unfortunately, as I said, I only came in at the tail end of that portion of it.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I realize that, but I would expect someone in your position would have done the look-back and asked people before.
2:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The reality is that we all expected there to be some transition period. Whether it was me, or the private sector, I think everybody expected that this would not happen without a single.... There was a transition planned, so yes, the recommendation to the minister was clearly, “Go ahead”. That's the advice she got from officials, clearly.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay.
You mentioned that you had discussions with the union, but we've heard from them that they were advising as early as January not to proceed, but you're saying their advice to you was to proceed.
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
No. What I'm saying—
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Sorry, I may have misspoken.
I joined on April 11, and I believe I met with our representative, Ms. Lackie, probably on the Wednesday of my first week, and we had conversations about Miramichi at the time and the folks there. The meeting I had with the heads of the union was on April 25. Prior to that they had already started raising their request to not go to phase two.
At that time, once you'd launched the first wave, I think it would have been really difficult not to go to the second wave. You're managing two systems. People are working with two different systems, trying to understand and learn one while they're dealing with the other one. There's crossover from departments that are on the old system to a new system. It was really felt, and I think if you validate with industry they would say that with a move like that, you're better to move all the pieces—
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I have a couple of quick questions because I'm running out of time.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I think I know the answer. Looking back, would you have advised, “Let's run with the two systems for a bit longer”? Did you or anyone else in your department, the ADMs, suggest that maybe you should run a bit longer with them both to smooth out everything before proceeding fully?
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I think I would have made another type of recommendation. I think I would have looked at making sure that the employees and all the departments really understood the magnitude of the change in terms of the change management associated with that. I would have made sure that we did have additional compensation advisers, just in case we were going to transition. But I would have said that it was necessary to move to the second phase.