Evidence of meeting #29 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.
2:45 p.m.
President, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Why not? If it exists in 60 countries around the world, why wouldn't it work here?
2:45 p.m.
Coordinator, Save Canada Post, Quebec, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
I would add that a country like Switzerland is a small country of 41,000 square kilometres, while Canada is 10 million square kilometres. Switzerland has a population of barely 9 million, whereas Canada's is 35 million. Switzerland has 383 well-established banks and registered institutions.
I know that I'll be told that many tax havens exist already. That's true, except that Swiss citizens who wake up one morning and decide they need to open a bank account or get a loan can choose from 383 different institutions. Despite that, the Swiss post office has a postal bank that accounted for 71% of its total revenues in 2013.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Our final intervenor will be Mr. Whalen, for five minutes please.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to ask your group the same questions I asked this morning. But I would first like to clarify one thing about the funding and finances of Canada Post.
Could you just either agree with me or not about my understanding of the financial situation. In the past, Canada Post has always predicted a deficit. Over the last five years, notwithstanding having predicted a deficit, they made a profit. So when they now say that in 10 years they'll be running a $700-million deficit, it follows that it's the same logical error they've made in the past and that their financial situation is not as bad as they say it is. Is that the point you're trying to make?
2:45 p.m.
Coordinator, Save Canada Post, Quebec, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Absolutely.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
We're hearing today from a number of groups that there's a mistrust of the reports from Canada Post. They don't know why the full survey of postal banking wasn't released. They question the veracity of the financial information that's being presented. We've heard allegations that members of the boards and the task force participate in the banking industry and therefore have a conflict of interest in honestly analyzing the potential for postal banks.
In light of this situation, do you feel that if a new division is developed for Canada Post, the current management will be able to deliver on a new vision? Do you think they believe enough in Canada Post to achieve a new vision, or do you think that in order to move forward with a new division we also need new management?
2:45 p.m.
Coordinator, Save Canada Post, Quebec, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
First off, I would say yes because Deepak Chopra and the board of directors have clearly proven in recent years that they were not open to expanding services. Their sole vision was to cut services and the labour force instead of advocating a more positive and proactive solution when it comes to creating new services.
In short, I don't really expect their opinion to change overnight.
2:50 p.m.
President, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Absolutely.
2:50 p.m.
National Coordinator, Save Canada Post, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
I would just like to add that three former CEOs have already stated that creating a postal bank would be profitable for Canada Post, including Moya Green, who preceded Deepak Chopra, Mr. Warren and Mr. Ouellet.
2:50 p.m.
President, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
I have a problem when business leaders don't see their business grow. That's most of the time in the public sector. It almost never happens in the private sector, but it's almost always the case in the public sector. It's a bit strange.
Why aren't we focusing on growing the business and improving public services, instead of reducing services? The private sector is going to take over. But it will end up costing us more, and the services will be lower quality.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
My concern is that the strike threat we had this summer ended up reducing the volume of mail sent directly to people and encouraged them to change how they do business with their bank. Under these conditions, they will get less mail by post.
Do you think it was more the fault of the unions or management, or both, that led to the labour strife this summer that may have actually decreased the revenues that Canada Post will earn this year?
2:50 p.m.
National Coordinator, Save Canada Post, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
The Canadian Union of Postal Workers never issued a 72-hour notice, except the last time. During the negotiations, which went on for nine months, we never issued a 72-hour notice, unlike Canada Post, which issued two lockout notices.
This summer's uncertainty was created by Canada Post, which sent messages to major mail users indicating that there would probably be a strike. They did not say that there would probably be a lockout, but mentioned a strike. However, we certainly never issued a 72-hour notice concerning a strike mandate.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
I think we'll stop now, but I will invoke the right of the chair to ask one question to all three. I do this rarely.
I'm sorry. I don't speak much French.
I will do this in English, if I may.
We've heard the issue of direct government subsidies a few times today, similar to what I would suspect successive governments have done with CBC. I would like a short answer from all of you. Do you believe that a direct government subsidy into Canada Post would be unnecessary because it can remain profitable, albeit with a few changes like expanding its network of services? Do you agree that subsidies could be part of the solution as a last resort, or are direct government subsidies something you would advocate?
May I have a short answer from all three of you.
Monsieur Boyer.
2:50 p.m.
President, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
It's a public service. If we want to keep it, I think we need to take every step necessary to do so. If it's through subsidies, fine, but we think we need good solutions that are likely to make the Canada Post Corporation's future brighter.
Talking about conflicts teaches us a lot about them or the so-called future conflicts. Martine Hébert, from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, was devastated at the idea of losing the postal service during a possible dispute. The last time the postal employees were locked out, the House of Commons had to call them back to work because they are an essential service.
We need to keep this service. If we need to use subsidies, let's do it, but I think, if the solutions we are proposing are adopted, the Canada Post Corporation will be far more effective.
2:50 p.m.
Coordinator, Save Canada Post, Quebec, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Yes, let's do it if it's necessary, but it won't be done because Canada Post delivered more than $1.5 billion to government coffers in the past few years. There is no deficit. Taxes have never been used to fund Canada Post or pay employee salaries. So we're talking about a problem that isn't there.
Some great ideas have been proposed to boost Canada Post Corporation's revenues, and I think that's the direction we need to go in.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
2:55 p.m.
National Coordinator, Save Canada Post, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
I took the easy road. Since I'm the third speaker, the others have said everything already.
I really think what Mr. Boyer mentioned is important. It is, indeed, an essential public service. If we have to use subsidies, I say go ahead, but it isn't necessary.
Canada Post is currently a profitable service. It has been in the last two quarters. We are also heading into the most profitable quarters. So let's turn toward the future and toward new services.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your information. Thank you for your candour. You have given us much information, which I'm sure we can incorporate into our final report.
We will suspend for a few moments while we wait for the next witnesses to come to the table.
Thank you again for your appearance.
3 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
I thank the witnesses for being with us today. I hope you've had an opportunity to listen to some of the previous testimonies so you know, in effect, how this works. Each of you will be given a brief opening statement, and then we will have a round of questions from all committee members.
Monsieur Leduc, I have you as the first on my list. If you care to make an opening statement, I would ask that you keep your comments to no more than five minutes, please.
3 p.m.
Michael Leduc General Manager, FADOQ-Région Laurentides
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, everyone.
My name is Michael Leduc. I'm the general manager of FADOQ-Région Laurentides. We cover the administrative territory of the Laurentian region, from Mille-Îles River to Ferme-Neuve and a little further.
A post office is an essential service for many members of our organization. However, as in many places in Quebec, the Laurentian region clearly contains both urban and rural areas. Many of the five points of the action plan that Canada Post wants to put forward have already been implemented in the rural part of the Laurentian region, and a start has even been made in the somewhat more urban areas.
As for daily door-to-door home mail delivery, I think the public's needs have changed in this respect. Personally, I have been living in Mont Tremblant for over 35 years. Where I lived, I had a post office box. I never had a mailbox at my home.
So perhaps I am a little biased toward letter carriers. I need to return to my childhood, when I lived in Saint-Bruno, and the letter carrier came by every day. Some arguments have been made about letter carriers and the useful social role they play, the least of which is with the Senior Aware program. It helps to recognize if someone hasn't been there for some time, which is good. A lot of people, in addition to the letter carrier, can take on this responsibility. Still, I think the service is important.
A reading of the documents shows that some interesting points have been raised. Sometimes we read a document that fuels a certain perception of the situation, then we hear other interventions and that view may change. From that perspective, the work you are doing now must be very interesting.
I think the cost of payroll and the service seems to be a major concern for Canada Post management, to the point that it might put much more time into trying to change the situation, instead of developing new directions.
Yes, it's a fact that people are sending fewer and fewer letters by mail. I no longer send Christmas or holiday cards. I use social media. Since the most recent increase in the cost of sending a letter, I've started avoiding sending them.
I think that Canada Post would do well to position itself in the digital world. A Canadian cloud might be worthwhile for Canada Post. A growing number of companies will have significant needs for data external to the office. For example, people use clouds in California or elsewhere in the world. It might be worthwhile for Canada Post to grow in that direction.
People could also benefit from Canada Post's expertise and knowledge about where Canadians live for various things. Surely there are markets that can be developed in this respect, even digitally.
I think it's important that there be some development in service for people with reduced mobility who have difficulty getting around, such as seniors, to ensure that they don't lose these services. I think Canada Post understands this vision in that respect.
Thank you.
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
3:05 p.m.
Georges Flanagan President, Association de l’Âge d’Or de Bois-des-Filion
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I listened to the previous presentations. They were very technical. Mine won't be technical, but will be totally based on people's needs.
I prepared a document that I will read. I will try to be as clear as possible.
As president of the Association de l'Âge d'Or de Bois-des-Filion, I am appearing before this committee to share with you the opinion of the association's members on Canada Post's services and on the corporation's intentions, as reported in the various media, including on TV and in print. Before going any further, I would like to share some facts about our association.
The Association de l'Âge d'Or de Bois-des-Filion has 430 members between the ages of 47 and 94. It's a wide age range, but they are all seniors. They live in the following cities: Bois-des-Filion, Lorraine, Terrebonne, Sainte-Thérèse, Rosemère, Laval, Montreal, Saint-Jérôme, Saint-Eustache and other small municipalities. These people are seniors and shine on a good number of people around them, including their immediate family, their friends, the people they do business with, and so on. It's still a fairly large group in terms of the local population.
On Tuesday, September 20, I consulted them at a meeting, where 100 of the 430 members gathered. I will describe the consultation's outcome.
The vast majority of the people present said they were very satisfied with the services provided and the rates charged. They didn't have a problem with it. The only sticking point was home delivery. I think you might have suspected that.
Canada Post intends to install community mailboxes everywhere. It's also talking about imposing additional fees of some hundreds of dollars a year if Canadians, including seniors, want to continue to receive mail at home. That's a real problem.
First, let's remember that the postal service is a service that the federal government must provide to Canadians according to their needs. It isn't a service people choose. No, it's an essential service, like health care, road maintenance, old age security, and so on.
Certainly the federal government has its reasons for making the former Post Office Department a corporation that is managed like a private company that tries to find any means possible to make its activities profitable. However, it's especially important not to lose sight of the fact that the postal service is an essential service for Canadians. Trying to make a profit by decreasing the service is a little backwards.
Let's talk about the need as it has been defined. It's important not to lose sight of the characteristics of many Canadians, including our members and all seniors. Age brings all sorts of problems with it. Mobility is reduced as people age. That's the way it is. Financial means dwindle. People can't work anymore or take well paying jobs, and they receive a small retirement pension. The social environment gets smaller.
Everyone consulted feels that ending home mail delivery is a very bad decision for seniors. Many of them are isolated or housebound or have lost some mobility. The financial situation becomes more difficult as people age. Many seniors have only their old age security cheque and, for some, their Quebec pension plan cheque. Charging these people a couple of hundred dollars so that they can continue to receive their mail at home—which is essential—is the same as a surtax that would have a dire impact on their already meagre budget.
We don't have great solutions to recommend. But we are asking that Canada Post guarantee home mail delivery service for anyone 65 or older who requests it, without asking them to pay additional fees.
It's important to understand here that, out of all the seniors, the potential number that would make this request isn't as high as you think, since many of them live in retirement residences. Still others have sold their homes to buy a condo or another property, and many others live in apartment buildings, where there is a community mailbox. Many people aren't concerned about what we're presenting.
What we're trying to say is that this service is essential for some seniors and that the cost to provide it to them shouldn't be as high as it seems. Everyone consulted told me unanimously that mail doesn't need to be delivered daily, as it currently is.
Most of the mail they receive is advertising. We're suggesting that the mail be delivered to homes only twice a week. Surely that would be real savings for the Canada Post Corporation.
To sum up, I must again stress that the postal service isn't just a “business”; it's an essential service, first and foremost. For many seniors, home delivery remains an essential service, too.
Thank you.