Government Operations Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I cannot recall where, but it was one of the suggestions that came up somewhere about seasonal boxes, so winter delivery, etc.

The lady you chatted about, 101 years old. That's amazing. I wasn't aware of this, but we heard from Canada Post recently that you can apply for and get weekly home delivery. They'll put it in the box and then once a week they'll move it to the home. We understand there are issues. Not everyone wants to get a doctor's note, etc.

However, if that is part of consultations with your groups and that is ironed out or set out properly and more easily, do you see that as a much more viable solution to this issue? We're not making them jump through hoops, as they say.

[Georges Flanagan]

If I've understood correctly, you're suggesting that the Canada Post Corporation be open to designating individuals who could be eligible.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

People would just have to ask.

My understanding is that right now it's available to the handicapped and the elderly. You have to apply and jump though hoops to get the service. If it's an easier service to apply for, and again with consultation with various seniors' groups and handicapped groups, do you see that as a workable alternative to daily delivery, where once a week it's dropped off?

It's available. It just doesn't sound like it's easily available.

[Michael Leduc]

Yes, that is a possibility.

We live in a country that has four seasons, one of which is hell. During the other three seasons, we could function normally. Several industries are seasonal and Canada Post could also make seasonal arrangements. Community mailboxes would function year round, but in the winter, we could sign up for door-to-door delivery. Some criteria would have to be established and it would be relatively easy. In that way we would not have to deal with all of this circus.

There is already a program for disabled persons, who have a parking permit and are used to this type of process. Seniors as of the age of 70 are asked to undergo a medical examination every year in order to be able to keep their driver's licence. This could be done in connection with that, but not everyone has a driver's licence. We would have to find other means so that Canada Post could trust the people selected.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I agree with you 100%.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Ms. Trudel, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a pleasure to hear our witnesses today.

Like my colleague, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for your commitment. It is thanks to people like you that seniors can break out of their solitude and stay active. In my opinion that is very important. I enjoyed your statements, Mr. Flanagan and Mr. Boisclair. You seem to have consulted your members well.

In the report which was tabled by the task force—I don't know if you had an opportunity to look at it—they mentioned that additional costs could be imposed for door-to-door service.

Would some of your members be willing to pay a certain sum in order to benefit from door-to-door delivery?

[Georges Flanagan]

As I said earlier in my presentation, the older people get, the more precarious their financial situation becomes. I don't know if my colleagues agree with me, but that is a fact. Those are the very basic facts.

The former secretary-treasurer of my organization is also an accountant. He prepares the income tax returns of many seniors. Most of them have annual incomes that fall between $17,000 and $18,000. These people have serious health problems and are isolated, for the most part. It is hard to imagine how we could impose these fees on them, since their income is comparable to the minimum wage. In my opinion, we should not impose such a surtax on them. If they apply and are 65 years of age or more, and their financial situation is precarious, we should not even consider the idea of imposing fees on them.

Everyone recognizes that the postal service is essential, but for these people, door-to-door mail delivery is equally essential. Canada Post could develop a list of criteria in this regard, and the income of seniors who applied to receive door-to-door delivery should be taken into account. A person whose annual income is $17,000 cannot increase his or her expenses.

[Michael Leduc]

We can now automatically recognize those who are eligible for the Guaranteed Income Supplement because of their low income. They can receive it without even having to apply for it. In fact, over 40,000 Quebeckers do not receive this supplement even though they are entitled to it, because they have not been informed about it.

Regarding mail delivery, perhaps a link could be made between age and financial situation. Perhaps we could ask for a supplement from someone who still lives in their house with a value of $400,000. This is a societal debate. In this case, we would have to find a way of distinguishing among persons, which would be a type of positive discrimination.

Be that as it may, it is clear to me that people for whom door-to-door mail delivery is necessary should not have to pay fees to receive that service. However, people for whom this service is a luxury they want to afford could be considered as user-payers.

However, how to establish a policy that would allow us to clearly distinguish between the two groups is another story.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Boisclair, earlier you mentioned that your post office had closed and that this had had a major impact on your community and your members. I would like you to tell us more about the collateral damage this caused. If your community's post office were to reopen, would other services be useful for the seniors you represent?

For instance, they have to fill out documents. We talked about Service Canada and Old Age Security benefits. I am not exactly familiar with your region's geography, but I was wondering if receiving other services could also be beneficial.

[Maurice Boisclair]

As for a post office that would play a social role, I would see that happening in the regions. Here the area is rather densely populated. The postal outlet was in my opinion the minimum that could be required. Now we are forced to go elsewhere. However, the services are offered there. I don't want to imply that services are lacking.

[Michael Leduc]

I find it inconceivable that a post office or postal outlet can be closed in a community, whatever its size, without offering any other solution. The document mentions franchises as a possible solution. I find it hard to believe that there was a closure in Lorraine without a franchise or other postal outlet having been opened.

I find what the union people have to say interesting. They have a very different vision from the one presented in the document. They question certain figures. What I understood is that maintaining Canada Post is very costly in the current situation.

How are we managing to keep employees and provide reasonable salaries to them without exaggerating? I imagine that is the challenge to be met. Management is pitted against employees. In a way, there has to be a postal service in every community. I very much like the idea of making post offices community focal points.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Whalen, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to continue on this topic.

Among your members, are there some who would like Canada Post to offer banking services? Do they want to see community centres in Canada Post offices? Do they want to be able to purchase or receive Internet services from Canada Post?

[Michael Leduc]

Yes, there is a need for that in the regions. I found the arguments in favour of setting up a postal bank in Canada Post outlets interesting. The committee has examined the matter. Certain credit unions are closing because they are not profitable. Perhaps there could be a collaboration between financial institutions and Canada Post, without necessarily creating a new bank.

I am not against the principle of creating a new bank, in light of what was said previously. There is ample room for that on the market. There are too many financial institutions that are closing in rural areas because operations there are not profitable enough. I find that rather unfortunate, but they're not forced to offer an essential service.

How can Canada Post create links with financial institutions? In the regions, in certain places, there is almost a community “ring”.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Flanagan and Mr. Boisclair, is this something your members are asking for, or is this your personal opinion?

[Georges Flanagan]

As regards the need for postal services, all of the members of my association have relatively simple needs. These people are no longer active in the workforce. They no longer work. They are all retired. Their needs are relatively simple.

30% to 40% of our members use Internet services. That is how they pay their bills. So there is no problem in that regard. They do not receive tons of mail. They receive a small volume of mail. That is what led our organization to suggest that the frequency of mail delivery could be reduced to once or twice a week. That would be quite sufficient. It would probably be an acceptable solution. It would mean fewer publicity flyers to pick up and line the trash with.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Boisclair, you have the floor.

[Maurice Boisclair]

This would be more applicable in a rural or remote area. Mr. Leduc is in a better position to answer that question since he is the director general of the FADOQ-Laurentian Region, which extends from Rivière-des-Mille-Îles to—

[Michael Leduc]

To Ferme-Neuve. There are 76 municipalities in the northern region.

[Maurice Boisclair]

To Ferme-Neuve.

Such a service in the northern part of the region would certainly be well received. Aside from the absence of a service outlet providing immediate services, the citizens of Lorraine are well served.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Would it be preferable that another enterprise, such as a credit union that already provides services in rural areas, offer postal services instead of Canada Post?

[Michael Leduc]

I would lean toward the credit union solution. They already exist and have roots throughout the area. In my opinion, that solution is preferable, rather than launching something new. I think that people have a stronger attachment to credit unions than they would to a new bank. However, the digital age is changing the banking experience.

If I am not mistaken, there are approximately 6,000 post offices. Would you have to install 6,000 reinforced concrete vaults and alarm systems in order to be able to keep lot of money? In any case, you already have vaults because stamps are valuable. I don't know if creating such spaces would be worth it. Perhaps a study was done indicating that this could be quite interesting and economically viable, but we don't know.

In fact, I think I would prefer a collaboration or synergy between existing businesses.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

So there is a possibility of creating partnerships between actual banks and Canada Post. Do you think that other services that are not being offered could be provided in our 5,400 postal facilities in rural regions in Canada?

[Georges Flanagan]

I mentioned that earlier when I made my presentation.

The members I represent are satisfied with Canada Post services. They are satisfied with the services they receive. As I said, the only issue is door-to-door delivery, but that is not the case for everyone. This only affects some seniors, approximately 20% to 25% of them. That is an approximate number.