Government Operations Committee on Oct. 7th, 2016

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

In your opinion, why do Canada Post managers give the impression — at least, give you the impression — that they want to shut down the corporation, that they are making rather bad decisions in order to shut down the corporation? There is some kind of paradox somewhere. I do not think that anyone gets up one morning with the intention of doing bad things, unless some mandate has been given.

I have heard all sorts of things, for example that Canada Post was going to be privatized. Do you have that impression? Has it been shared? Is it just a rumour? We talked about trust and you are talking about figures again. You do not believe the figures given out by Canada Post and you have different ones. You say there is no deficit and the situation does not call for alarm. At the same time, we are hearing other versions.

We have to find a balance between the two and we will have to make recommendations.

Is there a lack of transparency? That is another question.

[François Senneville]

I am not alarmist, but I am not in denial either. Canada Post does make millions of dollars in profits, but that is not an enormous amount for a corporation with revenue in the billions of dollars. The corporation could be in better health. That is why we are studying ways of improving the corporation's health rather than how it is going to manage to survive.

It may be a sensitive thing to say, but we also understand that everyone has an objective, a certain philosophy. Obviously, there is politicking going on. Canada Post is in the hands of people who were appointed during a certain era, as well. I think that some objectives have remained. I am not saying that to be disrespectful; I am saying it with all due respect, but it is obvious that there is an ideology behind it. That is my opinion.

People have a vision and there is politicking going on behind it.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I was finished. I have only 30 seconds left.

At the end of the day, service is important, jobs are important and the taxpayer is important. All of us around this table are taxpayers. We are managers, ultimately. That is our role. To me, that is worth thinking about and very important. We had not had the opportunity to listen to you and talk with you. That needs to be done more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Merci beaucoup .

We have Mr. McCauley, for seven minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Gentlemen, thanks for joining us today.

Mr. Senneville, you shouldn't have felt nervous. You did great.

Mr. St-Onge, I like the fact that you mention there are more Tim Hortons outlets around than post offices. I wish we had one close right now.

I want to chat a bit about postal banking. It's been presented often as a panacea for all problems. We met a gentleman who was the mayor of Chipman, a community in New Brunswick. It's a small community, but it is growing. They have a solid industrial base with a J.D. Irving plant there, and they were suffering the loss of a bank. He brought up the possibility of a postal bank. We asked him afterwards if the town would be willing to subsidize it, and he said, “Oh, absolutely not. There's no way we could afford to. It will never make money.”

I have to ask a question of those pushing for postal banking. If a bank can't make it in a growing small town that is offering free land and a free building but can't entice anyone to put in a bank, how can you make money in postal banking in these small communities?

[Richard St-Onge]

I agree with you somewhat. I also do not want to subsidize the banks. So we will agree on that.

My vision of it all is that we need a different bank with a different market. Of course there is an obligation to produce results; I especially do not want this bank to be subsidized out of the profits from the mail or other services. We have to look at things from a different angle.

The Canadian family includes the Business Development Bank of Canada. I get the impression that it has people who would be able to guide us in this. At Export Development Canada, there are people who are not far from us, who have experience. We could ask them to help us. Farm Credit Canada and the bond program are already close to the community, I think.

If we rework it all and all these lovely people put their shoulder to the wheel, I am persuaded we can make small miracles happen.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm not sure, but I appreciate the feedback.

Gentlemen, I think it was Mr. Simard who mentioned job loss. We've heard this again and again, but I understand that in the contract, and when we've asked other CUPW people, there actually were no layoffs. There was sometimes job redundancy that resulted in people just standing there, but there were no layoffs. However, it sounds as though you're saying there were.

Mr. Simard, were there layoffs? You were referring to the difficulty of a single mother making do with her lost job, but we've also heard that there haven't been any layoffs. Could you clarify, please?

[Jean-François Simard]

Yes, I will say a bit more about that.

In the case of the single mothers, I was saying that people learned they were going to have to work nights starting the next week. Those people were not able to stay and had no choice but to resign and leave.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay, but there haven't been any layoffs, though.

[Jean-François Simard]

No, but people were forced to leave.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

[Jean-François Simard]

I wasn't finished. I was also talking about temporary employees who were waiting...

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Or layoffs.

[Jean-François Simard]

... to get jobs at Canada Post. There is no work for them now.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes.

[Jean-François Simard]

And there is no work for part-time employees.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I just want to clarify. It sounded as though there were job cuts, but there had been no layoffs. Despite the reduction in the amount of mail delivered, there haven't been layoffs.

[Jean-François Simard]

I have just told you that workers in various categories lost their jobs.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

There were job changes, but not layoffs.

[Jean-François Simard]

There was no work for them anymore. There are employees who were forced to resign. In an office with 50 letter carriers that two weeks later has only 35, I think there were job losses, both for the region and for the workers.

What I am saying is that Canada Post forced people to resign by telling them that they had to work nights starting the next week, without considering the fact that these people had children and could not be away from home at night.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I think it might be something we have to look into a bit further, because we've heard from others that there have been no layoffs, but you're thinking there have been some. We can follow up since you've got another week with us.

Gentlemen, I'm probably very short of time, but you've seen the numbers from the task force, which show, over nine years, a $750 million deficit. This year there's money being made, a small amount, quite possibly as a result of this stamp increase, but also as a result of the money savings from the conversions to CMBs.

If this $750 million loss does prove correct as we see mail delivery drop, do you recommend higher taxes or taxpayers' money being used to subsidize that, or should it be taken from other resources to prop up the continuation of things as they are?

There's probably only time for one of you to answer.

[François Senneville]

I will try to answer quickly.

We have received Canada Post's financial results for two quarters for this year. The second quarter is always the one when Canada Post makes the least money. Even though the figures are really low, the second quarter of 2016 is still the best second quarter for several fiscal years. For 2014, Canada Post reported a net profit of $198 million, and for 2015, $99 million. Looking at those results, I do not conclude that Canada Post is going to have a $750 or $780 million deficit in a few years.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But the profit you can trace back to x amount of millions saved by the conversion of those community mailboxes and the stamp increase. If we don't continue, or if we reverse those community mailboxes, that whole savings of $80 million is wiped out, and we're back into a loss position. Is that not correct?

[François Senneville]

Installing the community mailboxes cost $75 million. The money saved...

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's a one-time capital investment, no different from buying a truck. It's a cost, and it's used over the lifetime of the purchased item.