Government Operations Committee on Oct. 18th, 2016

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How would they do it in areas like yours where there are mailbox communities? Do they just get the training...?

[Mike Nickel]

Well, there is the rub, right?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Can I ask you...? This is not to be argumentative—

[Mike Nickel]

No, I know.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

—but because you know the community a lot better than I do. I just want to draw a practicality to this and to the suggestion.

[Mike Nickel]

My approach in government has always been to add value. It's not about people or profits. It's about people toward profitability. Our front-line workers are grossly underutilized and I take issue with that at the City of Edmonton, because management is not doing enough. We're not measuring what we're doing.

I think the same can be said of the value of the postal worker. If we put a true value to what they do, and see what we can value-add to it, and it would be very simple things because the technology is there, I think you'd be saving us money. I think that's worth paying Canada Post for.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Great. Thanks. Great comments, as I was expecting from you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to our final intervention. Madam Shanahan, you have five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much.

I am no relation to Brendan Shanahan, by the way, while we're on the hockey bit. I thought you had made a remark off the top, but....

Thank you very much for being here. Those are excellent comments and positive thinking going forward, because I think that's what we're here to do when we're looking at the future of Canada Post.

I very much appreciated your SWOT analysis right off the top, as well, Mr. Nickel. We have to look at the strengths of Canada Post and acknowledge the weaknesses, and that's what we heard from the earlier panel. We need to have reliability—I think that's what we were hearing—because that brand appreciation is not what it was, or it could certainly be a lot better.

I'm going to go to Ms. Kennedy. That weakness is there and the perception that there can be a labour disruption at any time and that postal workers somehow can only do one thing and nothing else. If we were looking at expanding the kinds of tasks that postal workers would be doing, including that community hub where they would be interacting with citizens on Service Canada types of interventions, what do you think? Are people open and willing to do the training and the kind of service component it would require?

[Karen Kennedy]

I think so. I absolutely agree that they would be open to that, but as someone else mentioned, with the same individuals running the operation who are currently running it and going to something new and innovative, it's not always a good fit. You might need someone else who's going to come in there and say, “Okay, we believe in the expansion of services, and we believe in the way that this is going to function.”

Some of the issues with service that we see right now are there to save money. They might not cover a route, they might leave it until the next day, or they don't want to pay overtime, so they send some of the mail out but not all of the mail. These are not things they're supposed to do, but it's the way that things function inside of the organization with that dollar and cents approach. It's not about the service. It's as if they were weighing one against the other and balancing their individual budgets within their departments.

We already see things like reports on sidewalks that haven't been shovelled and dogs that are loose in the community, which they phone in about. Yes, they work sometimes with the police when they're doing delivery to places that are suspected. We have those partnerships going on. Yes, they know where the photo radars are, because they're out there.

There's also the weed situation and there are car accidents that they phone in about. There's a radio in most vehicles. They're connected and they are part of the community. It's already going on, but you're just not aware that it is. They are already the eyes on the street, and you're already gaining from that.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's interesting. We've heard testimony that people are not always aware of the full range of services that Canada Post can offer, even as we speak.

Mr. Nickel, turning to you, getting back to the SWOT analysis, you've talked about the opportunities. Please share anything else you haven't had a chance to say, and about any threats, as well.

[Mike Nickel]

Our first and most important thing is getting a true cost accounting of the value of the corporation. As I mentioned before, the issue is that public accounting processes and private sector accounting processes are different, where some things are valued and some things are not, and where some things are depreciated and some things are not.

You've heard of just a few of the services here that the city is enjoying. That should be measured and taken into account on the balance sheet, although not in the traditional sense of traditional accounting. They have an inherent social value and that needs to be accounted for.

Our first threat is really getting a true cost accounting of what the corporation is and what it is doing. Our workers here in the city are passionate. They care. They do it, and it's not like they make a big deal out of it, but it should be accounted for. The greatest threat here is that if we continue down this line and we move boots off the street, then I would argue that we are moving toward greater social disorder because we will have fewer eyes on the street.

We all know government has a limited capacity, and limited capacity means that we can't be in all places and all things as one order of government. We have to share the burden, so that's the other side. The threat is that if we should continue to sustain our order silos of government, then we're not utilizing those efficiencies and that value.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

That will end our questioning of our panellists.

I want to thank our panellists for being here and for taking time out of your very busy days.

Ms. Kennedy, I have an extraneous comment, if I may, again on the personal side. I have a brother-in-law who has been a 25-year-plus letter carrier for Canada Post, and I asked one of your former colleagues a question a couple of weeks ago when we just started our tour. The question was what the average length of term that a Canada Post employee has been with the corporation would be. I was very surprised to hear that it's as long as it is. Over 30 years is the average length of term for any Canada Post employee, which to me speaks to both the loyalty of the employees and also of the corporation itself, because you can't have one without the other. I was very glad to hear you come and give your testimony today as a 40-year-plus employee of Canada Post.

Should you have any additional information, because your testimony was very well received today, I would ask that you submit it directly to our clerk. We will be filing a report with Parliament probably toward the latter part of November, or at the latest in the early part of December. I would encourage you, should you have additional commentary that you think would be of benefit to our committee, to get that to our clerk within the next couple of weeks.

Once again, thank you very much. It was excellent testimony.

We are suspended for just a few moments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, we'll start again.

Panellists, welcome. I'm not sure if all of you were in the room for the previous presentations or not, but I'll just briefly explain the process, which is quite simple.

I understand that we'll have two opening statements and we'll ask for those statements to be five minutes or less. That will be followed by a round of questions and answers from all of our committee members. Should you go over the five minutes, I'll very gently—I hope—encourage you to wrap it up quickly. We've found that most of the information that's transferred from you to the committee members is contained in the questions and answers. That seems to be the most valuable time that we have, so I'll try to make sure that we have as much time as possible for that.

With those brief words, I will ask Mr. Newell please to begin with five minutes or less. The floor is yours, sir.

[Hugh Newell, President and Chairman, North Edmonton Seniors Association]

Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to meet with you this morning.

I'm the president and board chairman of the North Edmonton Seniors Association. The North Edmonton Seniors Association has over 2,300 members. We are the biggest seniors centre in the city, arguably one of the biggest in Canada. Of those 2,300 members, 350 are aged 86 and older. As board chair, I am one of over 300 volunteers who contributed over 50,000 hours of volunteer time to our community last year. The majority of our members live in their own homes, primarily in older, single-family dwellings. A significant number are widowed. This group would be significantly affected by changes to the mail delivery system.

As you are probably aware, Edmonton is one of the most northerly cities in the world, and as such, winter presents challenges to older, more frail citizens. The removal of postal services would present a roadblock to people trying to remain in their own homes. I understand this morning that the federal government is trying to convince the provinces that they should take $4 billion to help keep seniors in their homes. That seems to me to be a bit of a contradiction.

In areas where neighbourhood mailboxes exist, the post office has not taken the responsibility for snow clearing or garbage removal after the fact. Snow and ice on the streets are a hazard to seniors. If the homeowners who have had that responsibility downloaded onto them do not take the option of keeping things clean, it makes it impossible for many seniors to get to their mail safely and get what they need.

Seniors as a group are dependent on home delivery of packages and home delivery of their mail. They are far less likely than other citizens to use electronic means to receive their bills or to pay them, so the mail is extremely important to them.

A stated goal of all levels of government in Canada is that they want to keep seniors in their homes as long as possible, yet here we have an instance where a service that helps that happen is being withdrawn, and I would challenge the wisdom in that. The strategy of keeping people in their homes is good for the happiness and well-being of citizens as well as providing a considerable cost-savings to the health care system.

Part of the mandate of our organization is to provide support for seniors in our area, whether or not they are members of our association. As part of this program we provide a home support service, and that is done with the assistance of the City of Edmonton. The purpose of that is to screen contractors. Many elderly widowed people can afford to have things done but are afraid to contact people. I heard a story of a contractor charging a widow $400 to hang a picture. Having people screened makes seniors feel safe and enables them to stay in their homes.

We also provide an outreach service with social workers to help fill out forms and to help do the things that some seniors can't do on their own. Again, many seniors do not use computers, particularly many of the older ones, and cannot navigate through all of the necessary forms. They don't even receive the benefits that they're entitled to because they have no idea how to apply for them. Our outreach social worker service, which is available to anybody in northeast Edmonton, helps to provide that service.

I've noticed recently that many of the magazines I subscribe to are being home-delivered by contractors. I notice that the advertisements from the Edmonton Journal are being delivered by contractors. I ask myself what's wrong with the management of Canada Post. All that business exists. I see more and more couriers in my neighbourhood delivering parcels. Most businesses that were not able to change would have a board of directors who would change the management and find a way to get things done on time.

I submit to you that part of keeping seniors in their homes is providing the services that they need. Withdrawing even little things presents major barriers to some of the very old people. I would urge you to recommend retaining home delivery services.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Mr. Newell.

Now we'll have Ms. Kronewitt-Martin, please, for five minutes or less.

[Debby Kronewitt-Martin, As an Individual]

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Debby Kronewitt-Martin, and I'm a partner in a small consulting firm specializing in change management. I have lived in both rural and urban Canada, and I understand the complexity of providing the different services.

In his book, The Opposable Mind, Roger Martin provides examples of leaders who have changed their organizations to make them competitive and successful in rapidly changing environments. He explains that these leaders, through “integrative thinking”, resolved the tensions of opposing models and formed new and superior ones. They didn't follow the obvious path directed by the numbers experts; rather, they chose to shift their focus from problems to opportunities.

It's time to think integratively and prepare a platform that will allow each community to access services to meet their specific requirements. As you know, the role of Canada Post at its core is to connect people and the country through the exchange of information. That was the original mandate and that has not changed. What has changed is the way we communicate.

We could take the old approach of cutting service levels and moving to a franchise model, or we can reinvent Canada Post to meet the evolving needs of Canadians for decades to come. One of the key challenges faced by Canada Post is shared by virtually all federal and provincial departments, and that is the cost of providing services to widely dispersed rural communities in a country as large as Canada. This has resulted in a significant and growing urban-rural divide that is causing both economic and social disparity across our country.

When there is a shared problem, there is an opportunity for a shared solution. Canada Post, because of its mandate and the 1994 rural moratorium, is one of the few organizations with the infrastructure in place to form the foundation to bridge that urban-rural divide. I am asking you to envision the Canada service centres of the future.

Mail delivery would continue to be a primary service. Rural centres would have small business centres with high-speed Internet, computers, printers, copiers, and scanners, all the technology that rural businesses, residents, and students need to access information. They could provide a range of services for federal programs: pictures for passports, and passport forms and assistance with that; EI forms and assistance with applications; digital information on federal programs, with the ability to have on-demand printing and perhaps information videos and things like that; and access to other commonly used services such as Revenue Canada's NetFile and the information at Library and Archives Canada.

They would also provide opportunities for partnerships with the provinces and the municipalities, and that is what Councillor Nickel spoke about. They could have notary public services, driver's licence photos and online applications, vehicle registration and locations to complete driver's tests, marriage and birth certificate applications, and all the other types of applications that require applicants to be there in person. Also, they could have partial banking services that would work.

In the long term, this infrastructure would be available for new opportunities and new services to be provided as they emerge. Someday, they would become community learning centres and even offer private rooms for video conferencing and telemedicine. Finally, they would become community meeting rooms, perhaps locations for MPs and MLAs and others to connect with their citizens.

While I've focused on rural services, I recognize that the majority of Canadians live in urban centres, where integrated business centres might not be what is required. I've listened to Councillor Nickel, who spoke of the value added that Canada Post currently brings and what it could bring in the future. This fits into that service centre platform.

That's what I am suggesting to you. We need to look at a different Canada Post for the future. There are opportunities for cost savings from the partnering and provision of integrated services and opportunities for new revenues. At this crossroads, you can choose the simple solution of cutting programs and services and close that door for the future, or you can open it wider and reinvent Canada Post in considering the bigger picture for the future. I encourage you to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much. I thank both panels for the economy of their words.

We'll start this time with seven minutes, and it will be with Ms. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much for being here . Certainly, we've had very interesting testimony this morning. What we've just heard from your panel is that there is a need that exists, and we've heard a vision as to how not only that need can be met, but also other unstated needs. Thank you for that.

My first question off the top will be to each one of you. Do you see Canada Post as a business or a service? I'll start with Mr. Newell.

[Hugh Newell]

It's both. I don't think you can separate them. It's a service because it's something that people depend on.

I would like to add to Councillor Nickel that having the postal workers in the neighbourhood, especially in areas with high concentrations of seniors, is a very valuable thing. They're one of the few people who regularly go through the neighbourhood and identify problems.

I had a neighbour who spent a day and a half passed out on his living room floor before the postal worker observed that he hadn't picked his mail up and made a note of it. They provide a very valuable service to the community because they're there. They see things all the time.

It's a business because it has to be made a little more profitable. With all of the other businesses that are picking up the slack these days, I think that Canada Post has missed the boat on a lot of things. I think there are many opportunities that they were ideally situated to take that they've let go. If they cut service, I think they will cut their business opportunities further.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I should mention that Mr. Oddleifson is here with Ms. Kronewitt-Martin. He will also be available to answer any questions you may have.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Excellent, thank you.

[Eric Oddleifson, Lawyer, As an Individual]

I'm a local businessman in St. Albert. I run a law practice. I use the postal system a lot, and I value it very highly. A lot of people will give you grief about Canada Post, but I can rely on them very significantly. When I see anything diminishing Canada Post, it's disconcerting.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Service or business, what do you—