Government Operations Committee on Oct. 19th, 2016

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. O'Reilly, the Mayor of Montreal, Mr. Coderre, thinks that it would be useful for the Canada Post Corporation Act to be amended to include an obligation for Canada Post to consult the municipalities.

Has this issue been discussed here?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Give a very brief answer, please.

[Kevin O'Reilly]

As a former city councillor, I always think it's good that our local governments get the recognition and consultation they deserve.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Our final intervention will come from Ms. Shanahan. You have five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you all for being here this morning. It's a pleasure to be visiting beautiful Yellowknife for the second time in a couple of months. I see that the weather changes rapidly.

My colleague, Ms. Ratansi, asked a question about the management style of Canada Post right now, especially as we are looking at the universal service obligation with the business mandate and so on.

Lynda, did you get a chance to respond to that? Did you want to say anything about the management style?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Meaning the relationship between management and the union.

[Lynda Lefrancois]

It's tense at times.

She had asked about the consulting, and Alex was addressing it. Here we go again. We have that in our collective agreement where new ideas and those sorts of things can be brought up. There is a panel for different appendices added on, different projects that could be taken on to generate more revenue.

In this last bout of collective agreement, the corporation said that it's off the table, that they don't want that any more. They did not want to go to the employees to generate ideas and work with them. They were taking that out of the collective agreement, so that might show what is going on.

It's going to stay in this one and when we vote, hopefully it does go through. That's what we are dealing with as employees. We want to grow. We need to change. We need to do all these things to remain viable and for all Canadians to have a postal facility, but to me it looks like they want to take it away by taking that out of our collective agreement.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Mr. O'Reilly.

[Kevin O'Reilly]

I'm a bit of an outside observer of some of this, but—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

But you have some very interesting ideas. It's the first time I've met a postal historian. It's fascinating.

[Kevin O'Reilly]

As an outside person, I find it interesting that there is no representation of workers on the Canada Post board. If you want to get a more collaborative approach—and that's something that we actually do pretty well here in the north, with our co-management systems through land claims agreements and so on—why not have some union representation on the board?

I don't think it always has to be confrontational. If you engage and work with employees in a constructive approach and get people on the board who know a little more, perhaps, about some of the internal workings, maybe there could be a better working relationship.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's interesting. So really it would be a culture change that would be driven by structural changes, as well.

I want to throw out a two-pronged question. Each of you has made a statement regarding Canada Post being a service-first organization, but in the understanding that it needs to be at least sustainable; that if there are profits, they should be reinvested back in; and that it is a profitable enterprise.

I just would like your off-the-cuff reaction. What would it mean to your communities if Canada Post were run purely as a business-first entity?

We'll start with Mr. Lambrecht.

[Alexander Lambrecht]

That's interesting.

In the north, you have to put the people first. I think when it comes to business, if you don't put the people first, you're going to lose them. As hard as it is to find alternative places to go to buy products and to find services, sometimes people will make those difficult decisions not to support a business simply because it is not putting the people first; it's putting its profits ahead of the needs of the people. That just does not work well in the north, as well as in the rest of the world.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's interesting. Thank you.

How long do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have less than 30 seconds.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay.

[Lynda Lefrancois]

I believe that Canada Post would not survive in the north if it were run strictly as a business. It's not going to make a profit in the north, plain and simple. We need the south. We need the south generating the additional revenue with parcels and with everything else to sustain our existence.

If Canada Post weren't up here, the people wouldn't be getting their supplies. They wouldn't be getting.... It would just go....

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

[Lynda Lefrancois]

I don't know what the word is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'd like to thank all of our panellists, our witnesses, for appearing here today.

Mr. O'Reilly, I have just an off-the-cuff comment on your observation that perhaps Canada Post would be better served if it had union representation on the board. I recall one of the best books I've ever read in my life. It was Lee Iacocca's first book, and he pointed out that when he came from Ford to Chrysler, Chrysler was hemorrhaging money.

One of the first things he did was to open up all the books to the union personnel so they could see exactly how much money the company was losing. His second move was to appoint the president of the local union to the board so that, collectively and collaboratively, they could work out a way to bring the Chrysler Corporation back to financial stability, which they did.

It was a fascinating approach. I think it was one of the few times that we've seen very effective labour-management collaboration in a corporation of that size, so I appreciate your comments.

To all of you, thank you very much for being here. Should you have additional information you wish to provide to the committee that would assist us in our deliberations, we ask you to do so. You can contact our clerk directly and make those submissions directly.

Since we will be tabling our final report probably in the latter part of November, we ask that you get any additional information to our clerk within the next 10 days to two weeks if you could.

Once, again, thank you so very much. We appreciate your testimony. We will suspend for a few moments while our next witnesses come forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll reconvene.

First, to our panellists, welcome.

Your Worship, thank you for your kind hospitality in the wonderful city of Yellowknife.

I assume that both of you had a chance to observe the proceedings of the previous panel, so you'll know how things work around here a little bit. Specifically, I'm going to ask each of you to make a brief opening statement, hopefully five minutes or less, and following that we'll engage in a round of questioning from all our committee members. We're trying to find out your thoughts as to what you believe Canada Post needs to do, and perhaps some specific suggestions of what you observed Canada Post could do in terms of maintaining its long-term viability and sustainability.

With those brief opening remarks, Your Worship, we'll start with you, for five minutes or less, please.

[Mark Heyck, Mayor, City of Yellowknife]

Thank you very much, committee members. We appreciate the opportunity to provide some input on the future of Canada Post. Also, on behalf of the City of Yellowknife, I want to wish you all a very warm welcome to our community. I understand some of you were here recently, but it was a little bit warmer then, perhaps, so make sure you watch your step because it can be a little slippery out there.

Canada Post has long been an integral part of the communications and delivery service network throughout northern Canada. I think my colleague from the NWTAC will speak more to the community experience, but I wanted to touch on that because I think it's important.

Picking up on some of the questions from the last panel, I think by necessity, the north has to be treated a little bit differently from some other regions of the country that we would see. Many northern communities depend greatly on the services provided by Canada Post and will continue to do so. I think the national nature and mission of Canada Post, one of the reasons it was first created, was to take that national view of the country in terms of providing postal service at reasonable prices to all regions of the country. We continue to depend on that to a considerable degree. It's been integral in connecting many of our northern communities. Yellowknife has some advantages in terms of its connections with the rest of the country, but certainly we have many isolated and remote communities that are largely dependent on Canada Post and services like it for their connection to the rest of the country.

We know the world is evolving with the rapid advancement of information technologies, and mail service is obviously not immune. Having said that, the delivery of goods on which so many northerners rely, including here in Yellowknife, will continue to be a major factor in postal service in the north. While as a municipal government we always encourage our residents to shop locally, we certainly know that we have some prolific online shoppers here in Yellowknife and throughout the north, and Canada Post has been a big part of delivering the goods when people are making those orders.

Regarding some of the specific options that the committee is examining, I think it came up in the last panel as well, but community mailbox conversion is not an issue that's particularly relevant for Yellowknifers or northerners in general. We've been on that model of service for quite some time. While I understand it's a somewhat controversial issue in other regions of the country, as I said, it's not particularly relevant for us here in the north.

I hope the committee members have a chance to visit our post office here in Yellowknife. It really has been a community hub for a long time. While the building was sold a few years ago by the Government of Canada, it remains a central focal point of our downtown core. Activities and public events happen there throughout the year. There are many events that are hosted there, as that central point where our community can come together.

I'd also say that Canada Post here in Yellowknife, and in many other communities across the north, provides steady, well-paying jobs to our residents. That's an important component in contributing to the local economy. We know that the public sector is a large part of the overall economy in many northern communities, and Canada Post has certainly contributed to that.

I'll finish up by touching briefly on the issue of postal banking, which is something that I think the committee has been examining to some degree. I do think there's merit in a more detailed examination of a postal banking model, particularly for northern communities, many of which lack any form of brick-and-mortar financial services. I think there may be some opportunities—if Canada Post is looking at not only the expenditure side of its budget but the revenue side of its budget—to consider evolving that national mission that it first started with, and potentially look at the option of providing financial services in communities that either don't have those services in the first place or are looking at serving that population that is not being served by the current banking system. I do think, probably beyond the scope of what this committee is able to do and the time allotted to it, that there is merit in a more detailed examination of that potential model of service provision in many communities across the country.

I'll stop there. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Brown, five minutes, please.

[Sara Brown, Chief Executive Officer, Northwest Territories Association of Communities]

Thank you.

First of all, I'd like to thank the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss Canada Post.

The NWT Association of Communities represents all 33 communities in the Northwest Territories—a fact we're very proud of—from our very smallest of Kakisa, with only 52 people, and up to Yellowknife, which is almost pushing 22,000, which is pretty amazing. We advocate on behalf of the communities. We deliver programs and share information and provide numerous member services.

Canada Post has historically been and will continue to be an important part of our community life in the Northwest Territories. The remote and isolated nature of our communities means that Canada Post is an important lifeline to the rest of Canada and the world. Although the last delivery of mail by RCMP dog patrol was only in 1969—pretty phenomenal, actually—much has changed since then, but not our reliance on Canada Post.

There has been considerable local press about long delivery times, lack of delivery and missing parcels; and the challenges of getting parcels delivered at Christmas is a matter of local lore here. Given its isolation, though, the NWT cannot afford to see the level of service provided by Canada Post eroded.

With respect to protecting post offices, unlike other jurisdictions in Canada, very few, if any, NWT residents have ever enjoyed home delivery. Many of our homes do not even have street addresses so that would be a formidable task at the best of times. We read with interest the potential of making post offices into community hubs. I'd like to echo what the mayor said, that in the NWT they already are. It's an important part of your day, at the end of the work day, running into people at the post office as you go to pick up your mail. Many post offices already house community-owned notice boards, those sorts of things, because it is such a hub.

With respect to parcel post, as the mayor also mentioned, we have very limited shopping in our communities. Even Yellowknife has only two locations you can shop in if you're shopping for kids. That's it; you're out of luck. You have to fly to Edmonton or drive for a couple of days. It's very important to northerners to be able to avail themselves of e-commerce. Many of our communities don't even have an option of being on the road and driving. So you're talking about flights, no matter what.

We've also had to present to CRTC about the challenges that our communities have experienced with respect to the Internet. Despite numerous limitations with speed and band width, e-commerce and the consequential delivery of parcels by Canada Post is an important component of life in the NWT, and it is only likely to increase.

With respect to banking, regardless of whether the decision is made to expand postal services to include postal banking, the postal service continues to play an important role in banking in the NWT. As the mayor mentioned, many communities do not have any bricks-and-mortar banks and they are already doing a lot of work that way.

One of the things to also note with respect to consultation.... We noticed in your report, to date, that many of the other associations were saying that it's absolutely critical to consult with the communities about the delivery of postal services in their community. They are the experts. We're happy to help facilitate that, if and when that happens. That does need to happen for sure.

Finally, in conclusion, I'd like to direct you to a Maclean's magazine article just this summer about Google trends around this year's potential labour dispute with Canada Post. The article very clearly pointed out that the NWT, Yukon, and Nunavut had double the number of inquiries on Google about the strike and what the implications were going to be, than the rest of Canada. It just demonstrates how important Canada Post is to our residents.

Thank you again for the opportunity to make this presentation, and for your interest in the NWT and the impact that Canada Post has on our lives.