Evidence of meeting #55 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was corporation.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Deepak Chopra  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation
Wayne Cheeseman  Chief Financial Officer, Canada Post Corporation
Brenda McAuley  National President, Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association
François Paradis  National President, Union of Postal Communications Employees
Guy Dubois  National President, Association of Postal Officials of Canada
Howie West  Work Re-Organization Officer, National Programs Section, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Daniel Maheux  National Vice-President, Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association

November 2nd, 2016 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, it being 3:35, we will start. I apologize for the late start. We do have quorum, even though not all our members are here.

Before we begin with our witnesses, I have a question for the committee. The bells will start ringing at 5:30. We will have to suspend or adjourn at that time, depending on the will of the committee. We have a couple of options, because at 5:30 we were to have the presentation by the Canadian Union of Postal Workers. I have consulted with Mr. Palecek. We can come back after the votes, which would mean recommencing around 6:30 to 6:45 for the presentation, but Mr. Palecek said he would also be available tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Our current schedule for tomorrow is 11 a.m. to 1. We could start at 10 and then accommodate Mr. Palecek at that time. I seek the will of the committee. Would you rather come back here after the votes tonight or commence at 10 tomorrow morning?

Mr. Whalen, do you have any sense from your side?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

I think we'd prefer to start tomorrow morning at 10 except that—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Tomorrow morning? I see nods all around.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

—there is the matter of the statements on the floor regarding Remembrance Day.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I know. That's the difficulty. That's why originally I wanted to start a little later.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I have committee tomorrow, so if we start at 10, I'll be 45 minutes late.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

As in any conflict, if you can find a replacement, it would be beneficial. I would prefer not to start at 10 because there are Remembrance statements by all parties; however, I don't think we have another alternative.

Mr. Palecek, if you can hear me, your appearance will be at 10 tomorrow morning. Thank you, sir. You're certainly welcome to stay for this.

Mr. Chopra, thank you very much for your patience. I think you know how things work around here; you've been before this committee enough times. We'll ask for a brief opening statement, which will be followed by questions by committee members.

Mr. Chopra, for five minutes or less, the floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Deepak Chopra President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Mr. Chair, I think it was a 10-minute opening statement.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

That would be fine.

3:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

Thank you.

I would like to thank the members of the committee for inviting us back here. I'm once again accompanied by our chief financial officer, Wayne Cheeseman, and our vice-president of government relations and policy, Susan Margles.

I'll start with a few remarks and then we'll open it up for questions.

Last time we met, you were about to embark on a cross-country journey to talk to Canadians about the future of postal service. Over the last few weeks, you've heard a lot about Canada Post. You have seen the size, the scope, and complexity of our vast network in urban, rural, and remote communities. You have met a number of our employees who work hard to serve Canadians and are proud to do so. You have talked with people who really count on postal service.

As you witnessed, we are important to so many Canadians for many different reasons. For some, the postal service still provides an important connection to their community and to the rest of the country. For others, the postal service is crucial to their business and to the people they employ. You learned that countless charities rely on Canada Post to raise much-needed funds. This is an incredibly important institution, with over 250 years of history. We're not perfect, but Canadians still value the service we provide and the effort it takes to make it happen every day.

You have seen the challenges facing Canada Post up close. You have heard from many Canadians who are counting on us to secure a strong future for their postal service. Therefore, we must get it right. You have been asked to put forward recommendations that will not only shape Canada Post and the services we provide to Canadians, but they must also ensure the institution is on a solid financial footing for generations to come.

As I stated when we first met, the challenges facing the corporation are large. The solutions to them must match the enormity of the challenge. The task force studied the situation and confirmed that the need to transform the business is urgent and indisputable. The amount of mail in Canada has been declining every year for the last decade. Domestic letter mail volumes have declined 32%. Almost a third of our business has evaporated from its peak, and it will continue to do so. While understanding the massive impact that this decline is having on Canada Post is easy, unfortunately there are no easy solutions or silver bullets to fix the postal system. There's also no one-size-fits-all solution that will work in urban, rural, and remote communities.

The good news is that Canadians clearly understand that the postal system needs to change. That's what the task force found in their research as well. Canadians want Canada Post to continue to provide an important public service while remaining financially viable. To do that, we need to increase revenues while reducing our costs. You have heard some ideas to grow revenues over the last few weeks. The task force also looked at an extensive list of potential options before narrowing it down to the suggestions in the report.

I can tell you that at Canada Post we have looked at and will continue to look at any idea that could grow revenue. Finding the best options is not always easy, but we have had the most success when we asked three simple questions: Is it something Canadians want? Is it something we're good at? Will it add new revenue above and beyond any new costs?

One such example would be our strategic decision to leverage the power of our core delivery business to help kick-start e-commerce for Canadians' small, medium, or large businesses. We're definitely good at it. In fact, we deliver two out of every three parcels that Canadians order online. Canadians want more parcels every day. There are eight in 10 Canadians who are now shopping online, and they're doing so more often. As for new revenue, parcel revenue alone has jumped by more than $400 million since 2011. That's almost half a billion dollars in a few short years. It is no small feat for any corporation, let alone a crown corporation, to grow a revenue of half a billion dollars in such a short period of time. We achieved this growth by doing more than delivering parcels. We worked closely with Canadian companies to understand their changing needs and deliver innovative solutions that are relevant to them. When they succeed, we succeed.

Revenue growth is key to securing the future of the postal service. The difficult, but equally necessary, part is reducing our costs. Most Canadians understand that the size of the organization needs to change to reflect the new realities of a digital world, but they don't want to see Canada Post employees laid off or lose their jobs. Neither do we, but we must acknowledge that labour represents 70% of our total costs.

According to Ernst & Young's analysis completed for the task force, our labour costs are 41% higher than those of comparable businesses in the private sector. As we transition from a mail-centric service to a parcel-centric service, that's who we are competing with. At the same time, we have a mature workforce. The average age of our employees is 49. A large percentage of our employees, over 16,000 of them, are eligible to retire in the next five years. That means significant and necessary changes can be made to the postal system without the need for layoffs. That's very important. We can achieve the smaller workforce we need through attrition. Even if we implemented every suggestion put forward by the task force, we'd still be hiring people every year at Canada Post. Canada Post will continue to be one of the country's largest employers for years to come.

This approach is respectful to our employees. It allows them to retire knowing we're making the necessary changes to secure the company they helped to build and will depend on for their retirement. It also respects our collective agreements and the job security provisions for our employees. As you can see, the window to take advantage of attrition at Canada Post is relatively small. The task force highlighted this in their discussion paper, when it said, “Canada Post must realign and streamline operations during this time frame in order to take full advantage of this attrition window”. This adds urgency to work that you're doing to help define the postal service of the future.

I would also point out that reducing the workforce to align with future realities must continue at all levels in the organization. Since 2008, Canada Post's overall workforce has been reduced by more than 15%. While management represents about 5% of our employees, as a group it is 20% smaller today than it was in 2008.

Reducing costs requires change, and change is never easy. Canadians are ready for change, but they expect a healthy level of consultation to ensure we get it right. Finding common ground will be incredibly important as we move forward. We understand the expectations on Canada Post are high, and we are committed to doing a good job.

To see what's possible when we leverage the power of this incredible institution, you just have to look at how Canada Post delivers the holiday season. This is the time of year when Canada Post is at its best. We're already deep into our plans, knowing that the growth in e-commerce means Canadians are counting on us like never before. Parents and grandparents are depending on us to deliver their holiday shopping, and thousands of retail businesses are betting on us to make their holiday season a success.

It's not just about parcels. We will proudly be delivering every Christmas card and helping Santa respond to over a million letters from Canadian children. We will deliver thousands of catalogues, coupons, and promotional samples from all kinds of businesses. We will also help facilitate the transfer of funds at our post offices from new Canadians to their families around the world.

The postal system matters to this country, but it needs to change. If we do this right, it will remain a strong and relevant contributor to the lives and livelihoods of Canadians for years to come.

The work you are doing is incredibly important. On behalf of everyone at Canada Post, I would like to thank you for your efforts.

I will take some questions now.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, Mr. Chopra.

We'll start with a seven-minute round of questions, with Mr. Whalen.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Mr. Chopra, and thanks to your management team for joining us again today. We've had the opportunity to listen to many Canadians across the country over the past four weeks, and certainly in the 22 cities we were able to visit, we learned a lot.

What we have heard from Canadians is slightly at odds, it seems, from what the consultation Canada Post undertook a few years ago seems to have heard. We also heard about your consultations and whether people felt they were listened to or spoken to. One of the things that we heard was around optimistic views versus pessimistic views of the corporation. We heard about a desire for service focus, a desire for revenues, growing the parcel business, and responding to those business needs, and less of a concern from Canadians, much less, on the cost-cutting.

Another area where we heard a differential view, from my perspective, from the corporation, was around the need for seniors and disabled people to access community mailboxes. Back in the 2013 time frame you'd mentioned that people wanted to get out and about. We did not hear that from seniors and disabled people; they want to be accommodated.

My first question is, if 20% of families face some type of a disability or a mobility issue in their home, as we heard, how much will it cost to roll out a full accommodation plan not just to the community mailboxes that are proposed, or recently changed, but to the existing community mailboxes in suburban Canada? How would the corporation intend to deal with something like that?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

As you know, the community mailbox program has been around for 30 to 35 years. Over the years we have evolved our accommodations programs to suit the changing needs of the Canadian population as the demographics and the needs have changed. The ideas for extra keys, for early-stage accommodations came along in the first decade, and then in the second decade we introduced more ideas, working with special communities and disabled communities. For example, when the communities asked for a lower mailbox because of their disability, that accommodation evolved over time. Particularly in the last little while, we have introduced a very robust accommodation program. What we learned from that experience was that there's no one-size-fits-all when it comes to accommodation. We have now worked a program where we communicated with every household that was impacted in our last round of changes to community mailboxes.

Could we have communicated more, communicated better? For sure. You can always do more. My colleague here, Susan, led the entire initiative from the start to bring our accommodation program to the next level, and I'll ask her to elaborate on that a little more. But I can assure you that the accommodation program was never intended for a select group of new changeovers. It has always been open to anyone with any type of—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chopra, in terms of cost, is there a certain point at which a percentage of the population being accommodated would mean that the decision should really be to offer door-to-door service to everyone, because that would be more cost-effective than a fifth or a sixth of the doors being serviced on an accommodation basis?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

If you look at other services that municipalities and government agencies accommodate for, whether it's wheel strengths or whether it's the parking spots and so on, all our homework showed that, if the percentages hold true to similar numbers, whether it's StatsCan or other similar programs, we think the program is still very valid and very affordable.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

You talked about $80 million in savings for 800,000 changeovers in suburban neighbourhoods, and in the urban areas you're talking about $32 million in savings for the same volume of changeovers. Does that number include the accommodation built in, and is that number discounted for accommodations that you would have to provide?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

Yes, we have accommodations built in for the trend line we have seen in our recent experience.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

With respect to pensions, another thing that we heard from experts who appeared before the panel is that there are different opportunities to help decouple the pension risk from the financials and also from the labour negotiations through a couple of ways. One would be to have joint management of the plans, and that's one that we were focusing on a bit. In addition to that idea of what your board and you have done to try to push forward ways to do going-concern accounting on the pension plan to alleviate that problem at the corporation, we've also heard that it's much more costly, certainly in markets like this, to change a plan from a defined benefit plan to a defined contribution plan. I'd like your thoughts on whether at this point, with markets offering very low returns, it's even a cost-effective move to switch from a defined benefit to a defined contribution. So both of those points I'd love to hear—

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

I'll ask my colleague. Mr. Cheeseman has led the pension file extensively, and I'm sure he'll be able to share—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

You'll probably have just a little over a minute for a response.

3:50 p.m.

Wayne Cheeseman Chief Financial Officer, Canada Post Corporation

We successfully transitioned our management employees in 2010. A number of our unions have transitioned. There is no significant cost to changing over. We're not saying that moving to a DC for new employees is the total solution. We think there needs to be a very comprehensive solution for our pension plan, but it's much more than just getting rid of the solvency. I think things like looking at joint governance, but joint governance has to also include joint responsibility for the funding of the pension plan. I think those are all good options to consider in a comprehensive solution to the pension challenges we're facing.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you.

Mr. McCauley, please, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Welcome back.

This is for anyone.

We've heard over the last month almost a narrative put forth that Canada Post has not been innovative in its business operations; it can't think out of the box on how to do operations. I wonder if any of the three of you can offer some comments on that and just maybe give us an idea over the last several years of some of the innovations Canada Post has taken. Not the community mailbox, but business innovations to increase revenue, reach out to grow the business, grow the parcel business.

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

Innovation has been at the core of virtually everything we've been doing over the last five years. When you grow a business that is roughly a $1-billion business to almost $1.6 billion, which we're forecasting in our parcel business, and going against globally capitalized competitors like UPS, FedEx, and others, it requires a great amount of innovation.

In 2013 we launched the Delivered Tonight product, which is the first of its kind in Canada where consumers can order a product by noon, or in some cases by 1 o'clock, and have it at their door by 6 p.m. That was a revolutionary service, which we have since launched in Vancouver and Montreal.

In late 2014 we launched FlexDelivery. That allows almost 40% of Canadian two-income families, who are not home during the daytime, to have their package delivered to a post office of their choice, any one of more than 6,000 locations, the one that's most convenient to their work or most convenient to their home. On their way home, they can pick it up. We have already delivered more than a quarter million packages in the short period of launch that we did in the early stages.

We have been innovating by partnering with some of the leading-edge companies like Shopify to make it easier for small businesses to use Canada Post as their carrier.

If you open a store at the Shopify platform—or for that matter, many other platforms—you never have to speak to anybody at Canada Post, and you are instantly enabled to offer the entire suite of Canada Post services, including track and trace, including analytics on their business, and best prices for small businesses are automatically enabled if they were to partner with any of the retail platforms.

Last year we introduced the most innovative idea in the concept store, in our retail store—North America's first drive-through parcel pickup centre. Again, Canadians are leading busy lives. Moms with young kids in their car seats, when it's winter and it's snowing, don't have to take them out of the car to go and pick up a package or to visit the post office. They can use the drive-through capability. In fact that was very well received in our first concept store in Richmond Hill, Ontario. We're now rolling out in a few other locations.

Much of our innovation has come from employee ideas and business ideas and retailers that are pure online players that have no store. We are offering our retail stores—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Sorry to interrupt, but you mentioned employee ideas and customer ideas. Do you have a couple you could elaborate on?