Government Operations Committee on March 23rd, 2017

[Anne Marie Smart]

There are a number of things going on. It's not just one-time, one-step. In departments, as you mentioned, they go for training. They have to pass the training, it's mandatory training. In their departments there are constant armchair learning sessions. Some of the groups get together on a monthly basis and talk about best practices, like what are departments doing. Mental health is one area where the government as a whole has been really focusing in the last year, and part of that was because the public service employee survey said that people were afraid to disclose. There was a real stigma about talking, and they were afraid in the workplace.

There have been concentrated efforts by having deputy heads be the champions, and going out there and making sure that those conversations are taking place. It's not just at my level. It's with all levels within their departments.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

So anybody managing somebody, all the way down to managers and directors?

[Anne Marie Smart]

All the way down to people working on the front line, directors. It's called breaking the stigma.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

How are you measuring that impact?

[Anne Marie Smart]

A few ways. The survey is one critical tool. I do the one big survey, right across the whole enterprise, as we call it. We've gone to annual so that we can track these types of things when we find them. In 2014, you found some problems. Deputy heads put in place action plans, but you don't know whether those action plans work unless you have an annual tracking. I also know that some departments are also doing their own check-ins with employees, whether it's through what they call post-surveys.... There are many ways to do it, but it is all about ensuring that you have a healthy respectful work culture.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I was hoping to get your opinion on this. We've heard from this committee that, yes, identity protection is important, but Ottawa is a small town. Once you declare a problem, it's fairly easy to identify who's working on what project in Ottawa at the federal government.

[Anne Marie Smart]

Right.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I find it hard for public servants to have their identity protected once they decide to use the public disclosure act and go that route. There was some mention about allowing staff priority to be given to public servants who disclose. It warrants an investigation to be given staff priority so they can move to another organization if, obviously, there is space available.

Is that something that you would champion?

[Anne Marie Smart]

It's perfectly within the authority of a deputy head to do. They're responsible for the human resources, the people management within their departments, so they could do it.

I took your question the other way. The fact that Ottawa is such a small town in many ways, and people know what you're working on, is all the more reason to make sure that identity is protected, that you do do things confidentially, and that there is the Privacy Act.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It's done. We say it's done. Of course their identity is not going to be revealed—

[Anne Marie Smart]

Right.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

—but it's pretty easy...just on procurement, you can identify who's working on what project. If they're declaring wrongdoing on a certain project, it's fairly easy to identify which team is working on that, and then employees talk.

[Anne Marie Smart]

It is case by case. If that employee is finding that they're uncomfortable, they would probably go to their HR, their senior disclosure officer, who would talk to the deputy head. The deputy head, as I say, has full authority to move, give leave...there is a good tool box there to use in those cases.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. McCauley, you have five minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks very much.

Every department in the government has its own little army for whistle-blower protection. We seem to hear it's quite ineffective. One of the issues is people are afraid to go within their own department to whistle-blow. One of the suggestions is to make those people inside departments independent and reporting separately to a chief investigator.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Anne Marie Smart]

You're not saying abolish them, but rather just have them report other places?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, right, because again, some of the words we're hearing—it has been expressed here as well—are that the system is set up to protect the departments, protect the bureaucrats.

[Anne Marie Smart]

Right.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We've heard that from witnesses. We've heard it from experts. We've heard it from—I've got another word for it—the victims of the system, where you bring it up, and it's circle the wagons and protect the bureaucracy, protect the system at all costs.

[Anne Marie Smart]

It will sound bureaucratic to you but it's true. It will come in to a clash between the deputy heads who have responsibility for the people in the department, so having somebody sitting in the department but reporting elsewhere—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Right, and that's part of the issue. What do you think of the suggestion of having the protection for these employees, independent implants inside the departments, so they can go to them, and they're reporting to an independent investigator?

[Anne Marie Smart]

As I say, I think it would set up a clash between the authorities of deputy heads to manage people versus—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I think you've just answered my question on how we should go, because it sounds like our system is set for the deputy ministers to protect, rather than protecting the staff—

[Anne Marie Smart]

Well, it's the deputy ministers' to manage—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

—a clash will be to protect—