Evidence of meeting #79 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wrongdoing.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anne Marie Smart  Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Carl Trottier  Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance, Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
David Yazbeck  Partner, Raven, Cameron, Ballantyne & Yazbeck LLP
Sylvie Therrien  As an Individual

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

We don't have the entire committee here, but since we were delayed by votes and our witnesses have been patiently waiting, I think we will start. We do have quorum.

Madam Smart, thank you very much for being here. I know we attempted on two or three other occasions to fit schedules and we weren't successful, so we do appreciate your appearance today.

I think you understand how the committee works. We'll have an opening statement from you, followed by a series of questions by committee members.

Without further ado, Madam Smart, the floor is yours.

4:15 p.m.

Anne Marie Smart Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me here today as part of the committee's important legislative review of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.

As you may know, this act is an important part of the Government of Canada's integrity framework and we take it quite seriously. We feel that integrity is the cornerstone of good governance and democracy. By upholding the highest ethical standards, public servants safeguard and enhance public confidence in the honesty, fairness, and impartiality of the federal public sector.

To this end, the act sets out the measures to promote an ethical climate. It establishes the foundation to promote a culture of right-doing and a positive ethical climate through measures such as the creation of the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Sector, which applies to some crown corporations, separate agencies, and the core public administration. The code, along with the organizational codes of conduct, describe for public servants at all levels the values and ethical practices that guide direction, decision-making, and behaviour across the public sector.

The act also encourages employees in the public sector to come forward if they have reason to believe that serious wrongdoing has taken place, and it provides protections for employees against reprisal when they do so.

The act therefore addresses issues that are both complicated and highly sensitive in nature, with the result that the legislation itself is complex.

That said, I would welcome any proposals your committee might make to simplify this legislation.

To date, I've read the testimony. I know your committee has heard testimony from a very diverse group of witnesses and I think you should be commended for considering such a wide variety of perspectives.

The challenge before your committee as it weighs the evidence is a very important one, and I'm very much looking forward to your committee's recommendations for improving the legislation and how it functions. I recognize that there are areas where the act could be improved. It has been in place now for almost 10 years. It is to be expected that, during this time, issues in its administration, the mechanics of its procedures, or in the scope of what the legislation covers would become evident and I think you've found a few.

For example, it has become apparent that it is important to protect not just the discloser, but others who may be associated with the case, even if that association is mistaken.

Mr. Chair, I also agree that the legislation should make it as easy as possible for someone to come forward and to be protected when they do.

Options might include simpler and more direct access to the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Tribunal, or the implementation of a reverse onus for the employer to prove that no reprisal has taken place.

It is worth noting that several witnesses have also echoed the importance of having different disclosure channels available. Several technical recommendations have also been brought forward by the stakeholders you've heard from to address some of the specific areas of the act as it now stands.

Another issue to be considered is whether there is sufficient direction in the legislation around the investigation process for internal disclosures and perhaps how these investigations might be appropriately related to the disciplinary investigations of individual wrongdoers.

I think this legislative review also represents an opportunity for clarification of the interplay between this act and other legislation, such as the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act. It would also be useful for the committee to consider these matters with a view to balancing the protection of the discloser with the rights of the accused.

I've also followed with interest the testimony of witnesses from several international jurisdictions. Each jurisdiction's regime has its strengths and weaknesses. I would certainly welcome your advice on how to apply the many lessons learned in these other jurisdictions to find solutions that will work in the Canadian context.

For example, I believe further efforts are required to raise awareness of the act and the system currently in place.

This includes an understanding of the roles and responsibilities of employees, supervisors and deputy heads, and of the resources available to employees should they wish to disclose a wrongdoing.

These include the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner and the organization's designated senior officer for disclosure.

Mr. Chair, the Government of Canada is committed to promoting a positive and respectful public sector culture that is grounded in values and ethics. As I said in my introduction, I believe that a well-functioning disclosure regime plays a very vital role in such a culture.

For my part, I very much look forward to your recommendations for ways to improve this important piece of legislation and I will take it very seriously.

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, Madam Smart.

We'll start with our seven-minute round, and I will remind all committee members that these proceedings are televised.

Mr. Ayoub, you have seven minutes.

March 23rd, 2017 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the two witnesses for being here today.

I'll start by asking a question to clarify an answer that we may have already received. I'll ask you the question right away, so that I don't forget it.

Some witnesses have suggested that we let the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada take corrective action when wrongdoing is found. However, the act doesn't aim to replace other mechanisms or processes set out by different legislation or collective agreements, such as criminal proceedings under the Criminal Code, grievance procedures or harassment complaint processes. A possible alternative is to allow for the use of the information gathered in an Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada investigation during the disciplinary procedures carried out pursuant to the Public Service Labour Relations Act when wrongdoing is found.

What's the current discipline system? What do you think of this proposal?

4:20 p.m.

Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Anne Marie Smart

Thank you for the question.

If there's a wrongdoing found, I know that sometimes the commissioner can make some suggestions for where to look for discipline, but it's up to the deputy head. The deputy heads at my level are accountable in the public service for discipline and for managing the human resources within a department. The deputy heads, in those cases where wrongdoing is found, do immediately start looking at possible discipline. In some cases they may hire a third party to look at what should be done. When I was reading your committee's testimony, I noted that it's one of the areas where oftentimes the deputy head has to start all over again with a separate investigation and can't use the investigation that's been done by the commissioner into wrongdoing. If that could be made available to the deputy head for the investigation, I think it would certainly help facilitate proper discipline.

They have a wide range of mechanisms available to them. If the deputy head, for example, thinks that they could be in some kind of conflict, they can also ask another department or somebody to look into the discipline for them. There are various mechanisms that exist, but it is the deputy head who does the report.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Mr. Trottier, do you have anything to add?

4:25 p.m.

Carl Trottier Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance, Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

No.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Let's talk about the current discipline system. What are the types of discipline? Do you have a few examples?

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance, Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Carl Trottier

The disciplinary action may be limited to a very simple reprimand. When you talk about discipline, are you referring to the current system seen by the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Yes.

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance, Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Carl Trottier

It may involve corrective action, but these are recommendations, of course. It may go as far as the individual's dismissal, but again, these are recommendations.

As Ms. Smart said earlier, the recommendation is good. However, a full investigation must still be carried out when the deputy minister conducts his investigation.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

The broader collection of information will speed up the processing time and will enable a decision to be made and recommendations to be provided more quickly without the need to start over.

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance, Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

That's what I understood.

Other witnesses have said that the current internal mechanism should be completely removed and rebuilt. I imagine that you must have been a bit troubled to hear that. It may not be the best solution. It's not what the Commissioner told us and it's not part of the recommendations.

What do you think of these findings or stances?

4:25 p.m.

Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Anne Marie Smart

I read it with great interest, but I came down on the side that right now an employee has a lot of choice in the channels that he or she picks for dealing with wrongdoing. Some employees feel quite comfortable and would like to disclose wrongdoing within their own organization to a manager or to the senior disclosure officer. Others, for whatever reason, choose to go to the commissioner. I think that they should have that range of choice.

If they're not feeling comfortable within the department or the ministry, I think that having the arm's-length commissioner is a good thing. If they are comfortable, however, and would feel that they don't want to go to an outside source....

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I want to add something.

When I hear a witness say this, I think a significant change must be made. It seems that whistleblowers don't have much confidence. Some people seem to have enough confidence to come forward and provide privileged information, but others appear more reluctant to do so.

Some foreign specialists who have had other experiences elsewhere consider Canada's current system so flawed that it needs to be started again from scratch. The system doesn't seem to have a strong enough foundation.

Are you open to a review of the system? I'm not saying that we should start again from scratch, but we need to build a stronger foundation to restore people's confidence so that they use the system correctly.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Please keep it brief.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Anne Marie Smart

I'd be open to looking at whatever the committee recommends. As the chief human resources officer, I have the values and ethics code. We work with the departments very closely. We make sure they have their own code of conduct. We make sure they have a senior disclosures person there.

I'm quite comfortable and confident that we have a pretty robust—though it could always be improved—system in place. I like the fact that there's also an arm's-length commissioner as an option for employees. I'm all about giving people the choice.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

Mr. McCauley.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Welcome. Thanks for being with us today.

I'm going to start off with section 4. I'm wondering what Treasury Board has done to fulfill the duties required under section 4 in the way of initiatives or activities.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Anne Marie Smart

You're talking about the act? As the chief human resources officer, I have the code. I'm responsible for all the people management, human resource codes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Right. The reason I'm asking is that we've heard a lot of testimony.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

We've looked at surveys throughout the public service. The faith in the whistle-blower act is very low. There's a large amount of—I don't call it ignorance—misunderstanding of the code for their protection. As required by the Treasury Board under section 4, it's very clear. I'm asking you what the Treasury Board or your department done has to address this, to disseminate this information under its responsibilities.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Anne Marie Smart

I'll tell you what we do. Can it be improved? Of course. What we do is we have an annual report that we collect. All the departments have to put in a report to us every year. I have the code. I make sure that every department has the right sort of structure in place, including a senior disclosure officer. In addition, they have to have their own code.

Each department, each organization, is different. By providing them with guidance—