Government Operations Committee on May 11th, 2017

[Marie Lemay]

That is exactly what I was referring to. Those people were hired 22 months before. Their layoff was planned—people don't disappear from the public service overnight. That was part of the plan to successfully implement two projects at the same time.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Ms. Lemay, in February, the Gartner report in fact stated that the expertise needed to be retained to make sure the experts on compensation could help new employees at the Miramichi pay centre. Today, you also said that you underestimated the learning curve associated with Phoenix, something you weren't saying a few months ago.

You said that the Minister didn't see the Gartner report, but your predecessor must have seen it. Nevertheless, 250 people were let go two months later. First, I want to say how glad I am to hear you confirm that. Second, it contradicts what you said today because, at the time and despite the situation, you got rid of those positions.

[Marie Lemay]

I would like to clarify something, if I may. These compensation staff were not employees of Public Services and Procurement Canada but, rather, of 46 different departments. In fact, 1,300 letters went out to employees in 2014 to let them know that their positions were going to be affected and that they had to either find another job or weigh their options according to a very specific process. Afterwards, 550 employees were gradually hired at the Miramichi pay centre.

That process, however, had already begun within the departments; the decision was not made by Public Services and Procurement Canada. Another factor is also worth pointing out: the departments were already under pressure because they did not have the staff to keep using the existing system.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I understand, but Minister Foote rightfully said that the problem was not due to the Phoenix software, itself, but that it, instead, had to do with the structural implementation, among other things. She was, however, the minister during half of that rollout.

Ms. Lemay, I can't get over this, but there are still people today who haven't been paid for six months, people like the Drouin family in Montreal. In your monthly updates, however, you say that these kinds of extreme cases no longer exist, that they were dealt with at least five months ago. How is it that people still have not received any pay?

In the Mauricie and Outaouais regions, 4,000 homes are currently flooded. If we assume that there are four people per household, we are talking about 16,000 people who have been affected. As for Phoenix, we are talking about 82,000 cases. Far more people are dealing with Phoenix pay issues than the flooding problems. The issues with Phoenix have sent families into crisis and caused people to lose their homes because they couldn't pay their mortgages. The situation is just as urgent and dire as the flooding in the Outaouais. Prime Minister Trudeau contributed $1 million to the Red Cross, on behalf of the government. His response was swift. In fact, he surveyed the flood zones by helicopter last night.

It is quite clear that, from the beginning, the government never saw the Phoenix pay problems as urgent or a crisis in need of a quick resolution. How is it possible, Ms. Lemay, that, to this day, there are people who have not been paid in six months?

[Marie Lemay]

That's impossible. All of the systems are in place, so I would like that family's contact information. You can give it to me after the meeting.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

It's the Drouin family in Montreal. Their story was reported in the media recently.

[Marie Lemay]

All the systems are in place so that we can give them salary advances. I can't understand how this is still happening, and it surprises me every time. Sometimes, people don't know what to do or where to start, so help us communicate the information to them. These systems are up and running, so people have access to emergency salary advances as well as priority payments. The money is there and the systems are in place. People can get in touch with us.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ayoub, it is over to you for five minutes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Rudeness is sometimes in the eye of the beholder; that's all I can say about that.

I listened to what my colleagues said. I also listened to what you said, Ms. Lemay, about Phoenix. Everyone is concerned, and no one thinks the situation is acceptable. What I have found appalling from the beginning is that people sitting at this table are looking to point fingers, rather than trying to resolve the problem.

Ms. Lemay, you said that this initiative wasn't new, that Phoenix had been in the works for a long time. I will pick up on my colleague's comparison with the flooding situation. What is happening now with Phoenix is the same thing that happens when the floodgates of a dam are thrown open. Water pours out, and the focus is on stopping the flow and closing the floodgate.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

The dam is—

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Please let me finish.

This is akin to pointing the finger at those who are participating in the cleanup and who are first on the scene to respond, once the floodgates have been shut. Such a comparison is beyond me.

Like Ms. Lemay, I am surprised by the Drouin family's situation. Phoenix has received considerable attention thus far, both in Parliament and in the media. An entire process is in place to manage the problem and help someone if they have not been paid. Employees have supervisors, and their supervisors have supervisors. The Drouins' case needs to be examined more closely. They have not been paid in six months, so I really feel for them, but I must say that I find the situation unusual and a bit strange. I will leave it at that.

All that to say that I know you are working very hard to fix the situation, Ms. Lemay, and that you have an action plan. What are your targets under that plan? Everyone wants to know when this will all be over. It isn't easy on anyone.

All pay systems make a certain number of errors. No system runs smoothly 100% of the time. Although that would be nice, it's not realistic.

Could you detail your short- and medium-term plans in response to a decision made by the previous government?

[Marie Lemay]

Thank you for the question.

In February or March, we released our approach to reaching steady state in each category. We consulted with the unions to identify the first categories, those affecting the most employees, and we were able to resolve the issues around parental leave and disability leave.

Our plan focuses on three elements. In terms of capacity, I would say that resources play a huge role. If we could have more staff right now, it would make a difference. Since June, we have basically been holding up a sign that says, “We are hiring”. Our doors are open to any compensation officers who would like to come work for us. The unions have put out calls, but this expertise is rarer than it used to be. We are exploring all options, including training new people. We are in the midst of reviewing our training to make sure we have the largest number of qualified people.

We have as many people as we can get, but if others are interested in joining us, they are welcome.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

What kind of assistance is IBM, the system integrator, providing to help with the processing of pay transactions?

[Marie Lemay]

That ties in with the second element of our plan, which revolves around technology. We looked at automating certain tasks. For instance, I announced that we had automated pay processing for all those in acting positions. The system in place did that for the current pay period, but not for everything prior to that. Those calculations have been automated since the end of February, and it has made a big difference. As a result, the processing of payments for acting employees is now automated when the data are inputted a week or two later. In the vast majority of cases, they receive the payments and it's over. Only a small part of the work needs to be done manually.

We are working very closely with IBM to see these initiatives through, and to take further steps to speed up the process and make compensation officers' jobs easier.

As for the third element of our plan, I would point out that Public Services and Procurement Canada is not the only department using the system. HR managers government-wide use the system. Initially, they weren't properly trained. A change in culture is therefore very important. We are really working alongside Treasury Board and all the departments to make that improvement.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We now go to Monsieur Clarke for five minutes.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's unfortunate to be on the receiving end of such low blows. The merits of a committee member's questions are not for judging, Mr. Ayoub. Like you, I want to be part of the solution. At the end of the day, however, every government is responsible for its own actions.

I want to talk about the structure around the implementation of Phoenix. If it wasn't ready, why, then, did the minister make the decision, on February 24, 2016, to go ahead with the rollout, when she hadn't seen the reports? It is, after all, rather incredible that the minister shirked her ministerial responsibility. If 700 employees were actually laid off by the previous government—something that was never really confirmed—and if that reduction in staff caused problems with the implementation of the new system, why did the minister make the decision to go ahead?

That's the problem. The Liberal government has to answer for this, because it made the decision to go ahead with the rollout of Phoenix, not the Conservatives.

Why, then, Ms. Lemay, despite all your information, did the minister give the green light on February 24, 2016?

[Marie Lemay]

I will repeat what I said before. First of all, the system had been in the works for months. Second of all, the affected employees were laid off, or received their letters, in waves. The process took between 18 and 22 months, so this wasn't something that happened overnight.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

But it is something that could have been cancelled.

[Marie Lemay]

As I already told the committee, the minister was told that the system was ready. That's very important, so it bears repeating. According to the only briefing she received, in February, everything was ready for the rollout.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Ms. Lemay, after the election, the Right Honourable Stephen Harper decided to postpone the rollout by three or four months. The minister could have done the same thing in February, since the reports clearly indicated that the system wasn't ready. It was noted earlier that there were structural deficiencies and knowledge gaps associated with the system, and that it was crucial to recover compensation expertise. On the contrary, some 250 employees were laid off during the first waves. I'm glad you confirmed that figure.

What's more, you said the desperate situation of the Drouin family in Montreal was unfortunate. The parallel I drew with the floods is very apropos. Under such circumstances, people shouldn't be expected to come to us for help; we should be the ones offering them help. Members of the military were deployed, and the Prime Minister went to the flood zone. Mr. Couillard has also been on the ground for at least 10 days. Members have been to the area as well. In this case, thousands of families have been devastated. The Liberal government has an obligation to reach out to families who are in desperate situations.

Why, then, do you expect them to reach out to you for help? You have to be much more proactive and reach out to them.

[Marie Lemay]

I am open to any ideas you have.

We have been working with the unions on how best to communicate the information to employees. I, alone, have given 18 press conferences to get the information out there, and I send emails to some 300,000 employees whenever I hold technical briefings. On top of that, we have appeared before the committee numerous times, and the unions communicate with their members in writing.

I agree that it's unfathomable, not to mention unacceptable, for the Drouins to be in the situation they are in because of pay problems. I am completely open to any and all suggestions.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Lemay.

Switching gears now, I'd like to ask both you and Ms. Campbell about the procurement of the 18 Super Hornets, which is a special case because it will not be based on a competitive process.

Have you asked the Department of National Defence to provide you with a letter clearly explaining the special circumstances warranting a non-competitive procurement process, in accordance with paragraph 3(1)(g) of the Government Contracts Regulations? I just want to know whether your department followed its legislation and policies.

[Marie Lemay]

I can assure you that we applied all of the department's applicable legislation.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Did you receive a letter, then?

[Lisa Campbell]

Thank you for your question.

In this case, we are talking about a potential acquisition, and the relevant provision exempts the government from contracting rules when the contract seeks to fulfill an interim operational requirement. That goes hand in hand with the competition to permanently replace the fighter fleet. The measure is possible in that context.

I encourage you to check our website for regular updates as the process moves along. Most recently, we submitted a letter of request to the U.S. government. We have an office in Washington managing everything. At the same time, we are in talks with Boeing about the equipment costs and specifications.