Evidence of meeting #18 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Please, go ahead. You can introduce it, Mr. McCauley.
I don't know if you want to read it into the record.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I don't wish to take up time reading it into the record.
I'll wait for the clerk to say it's in order, and perhaps we'll go—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I would suggest that perhaps for the sake of time, we could move right to a vote.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
We will have a speakers list for those who want to comment on Mr. McCauley's motion, which all of you, as committee members, will have received. It is admissible and amendable.
I'm looking now for anyone who wishes to speak to it. I'd ask you to please put up your virtual hands and we'll try to collect names.
Seeing none, I would ask Paul to conduct a vote.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Now Mr. McCauley, you only took a few moments of your time to introduce the motion, so you have about three and a half minutes left.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Great.
Mr. Siddall, the first-time homebuyers incentive, which of course the government is putting money toward, is kind of in direct conflict with your new rules on mortgage eligibility. One of them fuels the housing fire and the other one stamps it out. I wonder if you could give your thoughts on that.
Why do we have taxpayers' money going toward inflaming the market when at the same time you've introduced new rules to dampen it down?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Thank you for the question. It's an important one.
Of course, even mortgage insurance is supportive of demand. The first-time homebuyers program was meant to be a replacement for mortgage insurance debt with a form of equity so that prospective homeowners, first-time homebuyers, would not be burdened with debt itself. This program may in fact be increasingly attractive to people as they concern themselves with falling house prices.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
You don't see any irony here. On one side, you're trying to flatten the demand for housing, with people not getting in over their heads. At the same time, government's providing money for people to get in over their heads on mortgages.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
The difference, of course, is the form of debt support versus equity support. The changes we put in place were to avoid excess borrowing in support of house prices, which of course the first-time homebuyer plan is not. I don't see the conflict, no, sir.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay.
Is there a worry that we're dampening...? We're changing the rules, obviously. We don't want people taking on too much in a mortgage. At the same time, we're looking at housing prices dropping, and the demand for housing dropping. Is now the time to bring in more rules to make it more difficult to take on a mortgage?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
That too is an important question. We've been accused of making a procyclical decision like many other lenders—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
You guys get accused of everything, so that's not surprising.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
We do indeed, sir. We do. We're accountable to Canadians, so those accusations are welcome. I say that with my tongue planted in my cheek sometimes.
Nevertheless, the—
Conservative
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Well, it is procyclical, as economists would say, but the net benefit is positive. The alternative is to put people into houses with effectively 1% equity after mortgage premiums, with house prices falling, we estimate, something in the neighbourhood of 9% or more, and that feels irresponsible.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Do you think this a temporary measure to be reversed in three months or six months if things improve?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
No, I.... We'll monitor the market, as we always do. We think this is responsible risk management. We have put it in place now. We make changes from time to time. We'll continue to monitor how markets develop.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Minister Hussen, we saw Mr. Duclos today saying that the expected fraud on CERB will be extremely rare. Why would you put in legislation to jail someone over CERB fraud if it's supposed to be so rare?
Conservative
Liberal
Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON
Mr. Chair, I want to respect the honourable member's question, but I cannot speak about legislation that has not yet been presented in the House.
Conservative
Liberal
Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON
That would be a violation of parliamentary privilege. The honourable member knows that, so I don't know why—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
The honourable minister knows he leaked it to the media, so he can talk about it.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much, colleagues. Again, if I had a gavel, I'd be gavelling it.
I have Mr. Drouin on my list.
Francis, you gave the last intervention. I'm not sure if you or Mr. Kusmierczyk will do this one.
Liberal
