Government Operations Committee on Feb. 17th, 2021

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

You identified some of the challenges with the older or archaic systems that we're operating with. I'm wondering if you've made specific suggestions for the type of software the federal government should look at adopting that could help speed up the process.

[Caroline Maynard]

Unfortunately, we don't have the technical experience with the different software. There are many of them. I think they did a search for a contract at the TBS level. We've been saying to look at what other institutions are doing. For example, Transport Canada is doing really, really well with managing their information electronically. Between the institutions, we will refer them to other institutions and tell them to go find out from them and talk to their IT people and managers to see how they're dealing with this.

For example, following the special report with the RCMP—you may be aware of this—there were a lot of issues with the RCMP process. They are also in contact with DND, which has made a lot of changes. I think between them there are good practices they can learn from each other. If we can help, we will. We put them in contact. However, we don't have the expertise ourselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler and Ms. Maynard.

We'll now go to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry for the lag caused by the interpretation. However, I must say that the interpreters are doing an excellent job, and I thank them for it.

Ms. Maynard, you said that the $2.2 million allowed you to hire 25 investigators, but that the departments need more analysts.

On average, how much more money do you think the departments would need to hire analysts?

[Caroline Maynard]

Once again, it's very difficult to say because each department is different.

There are also significant differences between departments in the classification of analyst positions. This is a problem in itself, because departments treat analysts differently, with some classifying them in administrative services and others in program administration. As a result, the transfer of knowledge and skills can sometimes be difficult. The Canada Revenue Agency has excellent online training for its own analysts, but it can't be offered to analysts at National Defence, for example, because it doesn't deal with the same type of information at all.

It's very difficult to know how many analysts departments and agencies need. Each year, each has its own statistics. So it's possible to know how many requests each has received per year, how many of these have been fully answered, and how many still need to be processed. If the number of outstanding requests continues to increase, that's when alarm bells should ring, because it means we're not going in the right direction.

Sometimes it's enough to have additional resources for a year. Consultants can work for us, and that's a great help, but it goes without saying that this is a temporary solution.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Could you tell me which government departments or agencies seem to be the most resistant to transparency? Are there any specific reasons, if I can put it that way? I'm trying to find the right words so as not to offend anyone.

[Caroline Maynard]

Once again, it's difficult to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Ms. Maynard, could you answer that very quickly, please.

[Caroline Maynard]

This is really related to the leadership of the institution. We've found that when deputy ministers get involved in access to information, there really is a lot more transparency. The whole institution sees the direction it's taking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much. Two and a half minutes goes by very quickly.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I want to build on the really solid questions of my colleague from the Bloc, Ms. Vignola. We've assumed that everything would stay the same, but from your position, based on the gold standards around the world, if we were to apply a true open by default measure, in your opinion, how would that offset the need for all of the current levels of ATIPs? For instance, if we had proactive disclosure, if we had better systems of transparency, in your opinion, how would that help us offset the current need that we have or that we're facing as a crisis?

[Caroline Maynard]

I think it would go a long way. There's nothing better, I think, than voluntary disclosure. One of the best examples I think I gave you last time was that of Australia. When it has three requests on one subject, it's automatically proactively disclosed afterward.

We have Health Canada, which told us they always had the same types of requests pre-COVID, regarding the results of testing of medication. Once you know that, why not make it public? Why wait for an access request? PCO is getting the same types of requests. CSIS is getting the same types of requests. CSIS has very specific, very high-level secret documents, so they have to be careful, but still, they know how to manage their information so that when there is an access request, they can provide the information without disclosing what must be protected.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's not lost on me that we have a Minister for Digital Government; we have a minister whose job this is for digital government, and yet here we are.

I want to talk about the doomsday scenario. What would happen if, after COVID, the access to information regime was beyond repair, just completely haywire? What would the implications be?

[Caroline Maynard]

Canadians will lose complete trust in their government. This is—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I would agree.

[Caroline Maynard]

Access is to give information so Canadians can count on their government and they can hold it to account, really make it responsible for decisions and trust it. If you don't have information, if you can't trust your government, democracy is at question, and I think that would be a very sad day.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I think it's incumbent on us to heed these words and, as a committee, to come up with a way in which we can get to a proactive disclosure scenario and really poke and prod this government to do what it said it was going to do, which is to be open by default.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Now we'll go to Ms. Harder for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

You opened by saying that it is actually quasi-constitutional. That's the term that you used, and you've used it before as well, of course, to describe access to information.

If it's quasi-constitutional, then I would say it would be deemed an essential service and if it's deemed an essential service, then shouldn't those individuals who are responsible for accessing that information that has been requested be able to go into their offices and then find that information and make it available? Again, quasi-constitutional, that seems to be essential. So why are these documents, why is this information, being held up simply because it's in the office and not available to them at home? Why are they being prevented from doing their job?

[Caroline Maynard]

It's really difficult to answer that question because I believe that our government institutions are trying to respect the health information and the restrictions that have been imposed by the provinces. We see, however, that a lot of managers and coordinators themselves will go into the office but they don't feel they have the support or the responsibility or the authority to ask their employees to go.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Would you be able to encourage them that perhaps that should be considered an essential service, given that it's quasi-constitutional?

[Caroline Maynard]

I have been saying that since April.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

What is the response that you received from the ministers?

[Caroline Maynard]

At this point, I haven't been able to talk with the ministers yet. I have a few meetings lined up, hopefully, but the units, the coordinators, the managers, the really low level, who are responsible for the units, they really feel that it's their responsibility. Often, like I said, they will go themselves into the office—we've seen that—so that the files are moving and the employees can get the information to continue to work on files.

They do take it to heart but they need the support from higher up, yes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Maynard, are there some ministers who are more willing to work with you than others?

You indicated that you'd like to meet with them but it seems to be difficult for you.