Government Operations Committee on Feb. 17th, 2021

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have a practical question that's very important.

Practically speaking, it's my opinion that the disclosure of contracts helps us have a better understanding and shed light on potentials for improprieties as it relates to procurement.

In your opinion, within your legislation, how important is it for us to have the ability to disclose contracts with the government?

[Caroline Maynard]

Like any information it is very important to be able to provide at least some information. I agree that there is some information.... It's like cabinet confidence. There is a purpose there. But you need to be able to see those clauses that have an impact. I think there is definitely a public interest. I think there is a way to conduct our procurement exercise that will allow more information to be provided.

There's also proactive disclosure.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I only have 30 seconds, so quickly, on the issue of cabinet confidentiality, which has been a bit of a bugaboo of mine, it feels like everything they put through the cabinet all of a sudden becomes confidential. In that regard, if everything is confidential, then is anything confidential?

Is our government currently using cabinet confidentiality to cloak some of their dealings from the public?

[Caroline Maynard]

I wouldn't be able to say because I have no jurisdiction to review cabinet confidences. That's one of the reasons I have asked for the authority, because I want to be able to tell you if they are using it properly or not.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I agree. Maybe that can come as a recommendation out of this committee.

Thank you so much for your time here. It has been very refreshing.

[Caroline Maynard]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

We will now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I think what Mr. Green is getting at is we shouldn't block everything because of perhaps a small confidentiality clause in a 50-page contract, that we shouldn't be throwing out everything because of one item.

What I was getting to about the whistle-blower issue is we have very weak whistle-blower laws, but we have a broken ATIP system where we are not able to get the information out otherwise. I'm a bit concerned that we're weak in both areas. You stated that we're almost at the point of no return for ATIPs.

Mr. Chair, in light of that, I would like to table a motion from a matter at hand. I sent a copy to the clerk—we have emailed it to Paul—but I will read it: “That, in light of testimony heard in relation to the committee's study on the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the committee retable the committee's 2017 ninth report, titled “Strengthening the Protection of the Public Interest within the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act”, and call on the government to immediately implement, or undertake to implement, the report's recommendations, and that the President of the Treasury Board appear to provide an update on the progress since the initial tabling of the report.”

The reason behind that, obviously, is it was a unanimous report from all of us last time. You will recall that Treasury Board President Brison at the time committed in committee to come back—plus there was a motion—and explain the government's actions on the whistle-blower suggestions. He subsequently refused to return, and of course now he's gone. We have a new Treasury Board president. We have seen ample evidence of failures to protect whistle-blowers, but also failures within the ATIP act. I think it's a good time to retable a very valuable report that all parties supported last time around.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. McCauley, on a point of clarification, where you say “that the government retable the committee's”, are you suggesting that the committee retable? Would that be more appropriate?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes. I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

You've presented the motion. Is there any debate?

I believe I see Mr. Drouin's hand up.

Go ahead, Mr. Drouin.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Can we see the text of the motion? I'm trying to get a sense from Mr. McCauley. I know that in the last meeting Mr. Green raised this particular issue about calling for this report, but we had folks from the whistle-blowing community here. I'm trying to make the link between the Information Commissioner and what we are studying with regard to whistle-blowing—two very different, separate issues.

I would have given you a pass, Mr. McCauley, if we had Joe Friday in front of our committee but—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I think it's pretty clear that we've heard today, and we just heard the IC state, that we have very weak ATIP. It's on the brink.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

They are two different acts, my friend. The Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act and the Access to Information Act are two different beasts.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I believe it's a matter at hand. I'm sure we can go to the chair to see if it's a valid motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Drouin, you still have the floor.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I would like to see the motion in French, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It was translated as I went, so it can be tabled this way.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It's just courtesy, Kelly, that's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

I believe, Ms. Vignola, you had your hand up.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I did raise my hand, but Mr. Drouin asked the question that I wanted to ask.

The interpreter did a very good job and I did hear the motion in its entirety, but I just want to know whether Mr. McCauley can email us the motion, if he hasn't already done so. If not, I am prepared to discuss it quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Vignola.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I think the clerk has it, if he wants to forward it, although, again, that's not how matter—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Go ahead.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Paul Cardegna]

Unfortunately, as the text.... I'm prohibited by the committee from distributing anything that isn't in both official languages. While I do have a copy of the text in English, I'm not at liberty to distribute it unless the committee decides by unanimous consent to temporarily suspend that rule and allow me to distribute it.

Thank you.