Evidence of meeting #105 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. MacDonald, did he ever tell you which questions he would be asking you ahead of time?
12:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
No, he never told me what questions.
He kind of indicated that he wasn't necessarily happy with some of the testimony of other people and he really wanted to zero in on certain things to get to the bottom of where he didn't understand the connection point.
Some of it I wasn't able to answer because I wasn't there anyway, not that it would be difficult for me—
12:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I'm sorry.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm sorry, but we're past the time.
Ms. Vignola, please go ahead.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. MacDonald, who created the task authorization for OnePlan?
12:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
It was a long time ago.
I do recall that there were meetings between Kelly Belanger's team and her executive director.
I don't know whether other members of her team were present. They discussed the scope of the work and tasks needing to be executed. I think that we signed the task authorizations for the required deliverables.
However, Mr. Utano and I weren't part of the discussions about the scope of the work.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Understood.
You weren't responsible for creating the task authorization, then. We were told that GC Strategies created everything and that it was plugged into an already existing contract.
Can you confirm or refute that?
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I'm going to try my best to answer your question.
I believe that Kelly Belanger's team and her executive director determined the needs. We used the contract. GC Strategies' third contract was used. If I remember correctly, at the end of the discussion, given everything that was going on, it was determined that perhaps it was an opportunity to use that contract, which focused on accessibility. That contract was originally created because of pressure from the Privy Council Office and the Treasury Board Secretariat to ensure that the app was accessible to Canadians.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
Are we to understand that the tens of thousands of pages provided to the committee were “cleaned up”, like all the documents provided to the Auditor General, so as to protect others by making you the scapegoats?
We learned that a majority of the complaints laid before the Information Commissioner concerned CBSA, and we also know that, in the past, whistle-blowers have been punished for speaking out against mismanagement at CBSA.
Do you believe that CBSA, given its practices, particularly with regard to contracting and passport management, should be placed under third-party management?
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I asked for a quick answer. Could you get to the question, please?
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I apologize, Mrs. Vignola, but the sound cut out at the end of your question. I'm going to try to respond to the best of my ability.
If I understood your question correctly, you're asking whether I believe that CBSA should retain contracting authority?
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I apologize, there was an issue with the sound at the end of your question.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
You're way past your time, I'm afraid, but there are some more rounds after—
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Nonetheless, it's not my fault if there's an issue with interpretation.
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Yes, that's true.
It's cutting off.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. Chair, I'll give Ms. Vignola a couple of seconds of my time if she wants to finish.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We'll take a couple of seconds to check the interpretation for the gentleman, please.
Ms. Vignola, do you want to start again with the question? We are past time, but we still have plenty of time left. Go ahead, please, and then we'll get the answer from the gentleman.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
I'm going to ask my question from start to finish to ensure that you understand it properly, and I'll do it slowly.
Are we to understand that the tens of thousands of pages provided to the committee, as well as to the Auditor General were “cleaned up” so as to protect others by making you the scapegoats?
Through the Information Commissioner, we learned that the majority of access to information complaints concerned CBSA. Furthermore, we know that whistle-blowers were subject to reprisals after flagging passport mismanagement.
For all those reasons, do you believe that CBSA should be placed under third-party management?
12:55 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Thank you for your question.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
If you're able to give a brief answer, go ahead. If not, I'm sure we'll get back to you in the next round.
12:55 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Okay.
The fact of the matter is that I couldn't tell you what documents were provided to the OAG or for these investigations. I won't suggest that they were cleaned up or doctored. I wouldn't know. I was surprised that the people they're accusing of doing all this work—the inventors of ArriveCAN, if you will, as we've been tagged through this investigation and everything—weren't even interviewed until the end.
My last comment would just be this: I think it's pretty clear that tens of thousands of emails were deleted by Minh Doan, and if that's the case, then I don't know that the information could be doctored; it just was never provided.