Evidence of meeting #105 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much, everyone, for your patience with the translation.
I'm sorry about that, Mrs. Vignola.
Mr. Bachrach, please go ahead.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Utano, you indicated in your opening remarks that you were previously employed with the RCMP. I believe I recall hearing you say that in your remarks.
Do you trust the RCMP to complete a full and impartial investigation on this matter?
12:55 p.m.
Director General, Information Technology Branch, Canada Revenue Agency, As an Individual
I do trust the RCMP, yes.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I guess what I'm trying to [Technical difficulty—Editor] repeated assertions by both of you that there's been no misconduct and no wrongdoing in these matters around the procurement of the ArriveCAN app—
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Chair, I apologize for interrupting Mr. Bachrach, but I can't seem to hear. The sound is not coming through.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks, Mr. Kusmierczyk.
We'll suspend for a couple of seconds while I get the clerk to check with Mr. Bachrach.
Now everything seems to be working again.
Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk, for pointing that out. Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you.
Picking up from where I left off, we've heard these repeated assertions that there's been no misconduct and no wrongdoing in the procurement of the ArriveCAN app, and yet we have the RCMP currently conducting an investigation. Are you suggesting that this investigation is unnecessary?
12:55 p.m.
Director General, Information Technology Branch, Canada Revenue Agency, As an Individual
We're not sure if we're even involved in the RCMP investigation. We haven't been contacted by the RCMP in their investigation. We did assert that we're concerned with the internal administrative investigation. There are conflicts of interest and there is bias and missing context in all the allegations presented in the PSF. The RCMP did not create the PSF.
Moreover, we have evidence demonstrating that continuity of evidence was not even maintained. You've heard about the accusations around the deletion of emails. Now you've heard also about information that's being withheld, never mind that the original allegation is still outstanding, despite our asking for disclosure.
This has nothing to do with the RCMP. This is all to do with the internal administration that's being led by the CBSA—
12:55 p.m.
Director General, Information Technology Branch, Canada Revenue Agency, As an Individual
—so yes, I do have severe concerns with the CBSA administrative investigation, for those reasons.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You have repeatedly expressed concern about the Auditor General's findings. You've expressed a lack of belief in the preliminary statement of facts from the internal investigation and you have trouble with the Botler report, yet the RCMP seems to think, based on what they've been given, that there is a basis for an investigation.
I'm trying to understand these two perspectives. One is that there's nothing to see here, and the other is that there's lots to see here and that it's very important and that we need to get to the bottom of this.
How should the public understand that discrepancy?
1 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I'll jump in.
Number one, I just want to clarify—
1 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Some of these are not easy to answer quickly, sir.
We're not questioning the AG's findings; we're questioning the inputs. If the AG wasn't given the proper inputs, then she wouldn't be able to have the proper outputs, and I think everybody understands that. We're not questioning her or her office at all. I want to be very clear about that.
If the RCMP has something to investigate, both Mr. Utano and I feel that they should be free to conduct their investigation.
What we feel very strongly about is that the CBSA is trying to cover something up. They've doubled down and created this false preliminary statement, just to basically destroy our credibility. They shared it with our employers when it clearly wasn't ready. There are clearly facts within it that are just so false and incorrect that it's unbelievable. That's what we have a problem with. That's why we went to the courts, Mr. Bachrach.
Just to be clear, we're not asking for the investigation to go away; we're asking for an independent investigation because we don't believe the CBSA is capable of doing one.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks very much.
We have Mr. Barrett and then Ms. Atwin. Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
In a response to a previous question, you said the app cost $6.3 million. Was that at the conclusion of your time at CBSA, or are you saying that's the cost of the app?
1 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
That wasn't the answer I was trying to give for the cost of the app. The $6.3 million was the aggregate cost that I was tracking over the first year, which is what the AG put in her report.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Then it increased tenfold in the following year.
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Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
It increased—
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Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
It increased to $54 million, and then to at least $60 million by the Auditor General's accounting.
1 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I think the Auditor General's accounting, from what I recall—I'm using rough numbers—was that it went from $6.3 million to $25 million and $25 million. I say that knowing that it doesn't add up to $60 million, but it adds up to pretty close to that, whether it was $27 million or $28 million.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
So the app cost $60 million.
1 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I would say that the program of ArriveCAN—
1 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
The question is, sir, whether you disagree with the Auditor General's findings that ArriveCAN cost $60 million. Do you agree, yes or no?
1 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I agree that the costs that she tracked were—