Evidence of meeting #105 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
We can follow up after. There hasn't been a lot of back-and-forth, but I will endeavour to do it as soon as we can, yes.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I'm going to continue on with another line of questioning here.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
There is one thing I want to clarify. The opposition keeps repeating that this was supposed to cost $80,000. Is it possible that this app could cost $80,000?
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
No, the app could have never cost $80,000. The $80,000 was to build a digital prototype that moved paper onto, basically, an online form that could be used on a mobile phone. It was used to demonstrate that you could digitize something, which is something the Government of Canada has been very interested in doing. Through doing that it demonstrated there was a doorway to building an app.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks, Mr. Bains.
We'll go to Mrs. Vignola for two and a half minutes, please.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'll give the witnesses time to put in their earpiece.
Mr. MacDonald, between 2007 and 2015, that is, before the creation of ArriveCAN, where in government were you working?
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I was at Public Services and Procurement Canada, in the real property sector. As director general, I was responsible for a portfolio that included construction projects worth several billions of dollars.
I got out of the IM/IT field, meaning information management and information technologies, for approximately three years.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
The first time I met Mr. Firth was around 2010, when I worked at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. I didn't know him at all before then. We didn't meet often. We weren't working together, and his company GC Strategies didn't exist yet.
I changed jobs a few years later. I wasn't responsible for project delivery. As I just mentioned, I then left IM/IT entirely. I had no contact whatsoever with Mr. Firth for approximately eight years, I'd say.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
In 2010, Mr. Firth was a shareholder or co-owner of Coredal Systems Consulting. Is that right?
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I have no idea. I'm sorry, but I don't know.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
The majority of contracts were with Transport Canada, which you mentioned earlier.
The following question is for both witnesses.
According to the Auditor General's report, there was little to no documentation relating to nearly half of the 25 most significant updates made to the ArriveCAN app. Consequently, the Auditor General believed that, out of 177 updates, the result would be identical, meaning little to no documentation.
How do you explain that?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I'm sorry. The interpretation cut off at the last word. I think she was asking about testing.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Could you repeat the last bit, Mrs. Vignola, and we'll try to get you an answer?
It's a translation issue.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
What explains the lack of documentation or the total absence of documentation justifying the updates made to the app, particularly with regard to the 25 most significant updates?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Director General, Information Technology Branch, Canada Revenue Agency, As an Individual
I can jump in with a brief answer.
There are a whole host of documents, and I'm not sure if the OAG was provided with them. OICs triggered every single technical change. They reflected orders in council that were ordered and then brought down.
Moreover—I don't know if it was presented to the OAG—from a technical perspective, we used an online tool that would track all the different changes. Also, we eventually had a project manager put in who tracked every single version and the origins, if you will, or the genesis of each version and the changes.
I apologize that I don't know what was presented to the Office of the Auditor General, but I can assure you that there is documentation there.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks very much.
Mr. Bachrach, we'll go back to you, please, sir.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. MacDonald, when you appeared before the committee on November 7, you provided a significant number of documents, including emails from your time at the CBSA.
How did you obtain those documents?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I kept records of some of the documents that I had when I was there.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
At the time, you were no longer an employee of CBSA, but you did retain emails from your time there.
Were those emails your property or were those the property of the CBSA?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
You would have to ask CBSA. Given the nature of what's happened, I'm pretty glad that I have them. It seems like a lot of emails have been deleted. I would suggest it's not just Minh Doan's, but other people's, too.
If CBSA thinks that I've done something wrong, they can add that to the preliminary statement of falsehoods.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
If your opening statement on November 7 you said, “I received an unsolicited, jointly branded GCS and Botler proposal”.
On January 18, Ms. O'Gorman, the president of CBSA, said, “I don't agree that that was proper procurement. It was not an unsolicited proposal.”
Who are we to believe here?