Government Operations Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2024

[Cameron MacDonald]

Ms. O'Gorman also said that she wasn't part of the investigation and was insulating herself. I don't know how she has all this information with which to testify when she says that she doesn't know anything and that she only got briefed when the PSF, the preliminary statement of facts, was created.

I think Ms. O'Gorman has not told the truth a few times during her testimony and had misled this committee, to be honest. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.

I've come here, I've told the truth and I've provided evidence time and time again. That's where things stand.

I think Ms. O'Gorman and I are at odds. Given the situation and what's happened, I can only conclude that she's not telling the truth when she appears.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

We have Ms. O'Gorman, we have the Auditor General, and we have the Botler report. We have all of these things, and you're essentially saying that all of these people are not representing the truth and that the committee should believe you.

I'm finding it a little difficult to follow how we're to understand all of these contradictions that keep popping up in the testimony.

[Cameron MacDonald]

That's fair. You read the preliminary statement of facts, so you will have seen that Botler tried to get a contract, not once but twice, in order to just proceed with work with the CBSA.

You will have seen—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

To stop you there, Mr. MacDonald, is that contract—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We're past your time. Do you have a very quick question, Mr. Bachrach?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm wondering if he can provide evidence that Botler is trying to seek a contract for compensation for the work they did, because that's not my understanding.

[Cameron MacDonald]

It says it clearly in the documents, so I don't know how to understand it other than Botler sought a contract to provide the misconduct report that they used as the allegations. In Mr. Utano's report, it says that they sought a contract in order to present as a witness or participate in the investigation, so....

[Antonio Utano]

Can I just add to that really quickly?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We're really out of time. Perhaps—

[Antonio Utano]

We're not saying that. CBSA said that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

We have Mr. Brock, please, for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for your attendance.

I want to use my opening round with both of you to put a fine point on this issue.

This discussion has to end, and it needs to end today, as to who's responsible for the selection of GC Strategies. Canadians want to know. Canadians are rightly angry that this two-person firm working out of their basement, doing no IT work, has collected almost $20 million in taxpayer funds. I can understand why the Justin Trudeau government wants to shield themselves from any responsibility.

I know the Auditor General was unable to precisely identify which individuals. She made a suggestion, Mr. Utano, that perhaps you should accept responsibility for it. Her words were that you signed the requisition on behalf of the agency, which “amounts to the exercise of delegated authority and carries with it responsibility and accountability”, but prior to that particular statement, did you not meet with the Auditor General's team?

[Antonio Utano]

We met with the Auditor General for approximately 30 minutes once, I am told, the report was already drafted. Essentially, I believe we were just a box to be ticked.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Mr. MacDonald, did you meet with the AG team?

[Cameron MacDonald]

We met with AG team the same day as Mr. Utano and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Did the issue as to who chose GC Strategies come up?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes. That was one of the first questions that came up and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You provided documentation to support your theory as to who chose GC Strategies.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes, I did, prior—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Who was that person, again?

[Cameron MacDonald]

It was Minh Doan and the president.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You're saying it was Minh Doan.

Did you supply any information by way of an ATIP to the AG?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes. I supplied the same information that I put forward to OGGO to show the three components of all of the selections of GC Strategies.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Within that ATIP, there was a briefing preparatory package that contained an item that I brought to the attention of departmental officials: “Whose decision was it to contract to GC?” I'm going to read this out, and I want an explanation. It says:

My office made the decision to pursue the contract with GC Strategies.

The two proposals for the work were presented to the CIO and President, and the decision was made to proceed with GC Strategies as their proposal and approach aligned with what the CBSA was looking for, particularly rapid staff augmentation.

The Deloitte proposal was a managed service using their Cloud instance. This would have involved additional risk, and did not align with our direction to build Cloud/Mobile competencies within the Agency.

Who were they referring to?

[Cameron MacDonald]

They were referring to Minh Doan and John Ossowski. It was written like that because Minh Doan had a fake heart attack and Kelly Belanger took over for him, so the notes were updated so that Kelly Belanger could attend OGGO with Erin O'Gorman, as she did—the record will reflect it—and that's why it was written there.

However, the question you have to ask yourself is this: Who was the CIO and who was the president when the decision was made?