Evidence of meeting #143 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was email.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Emily Nicholson  Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Stéphane Cousineau  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to OGGO.

We're in meeting number 143 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, fondly known everywhere as “the mighty OGGO”.

Before we start, colleagues, I need feedback from the committee.

Of course, we have Global Affairs here today. The motion stated it was only Ms. Nicholson. Global Affairs has asked to have Mr. Cousineau, the lead ADM responsible for the department, attend today. However, because the motion only called for her, I will leave it up to the committee to decide whether Mr. Cousineau should be allowed at the table or not.

I'd like a quick show of hands, please.

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I think I made the motion to have Ms. Nicholson appear. I don't see.... We've already had Mr. Cousineau.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

It's yes or no for Mr. Cousineau to be—

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

No. I'm okay with just Ms. Nicholson joining us.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

The ayes have it.

Mr. Cousineau, you're welcome to join us.

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I have a very short comment.

First of all, thank you to all the colleagues who supported us in that.

Prior to the meeting, I informed you and the clerk that the minister will be appearing on November 7. That was my mistake. She will actually be appearing on November 5.

Mr. Clerk, you're 100% right. I made a mistake. The minister will be showing up on November 5.

That was a mistake on my part and I wanted to correct it.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Wonderful. That's great news. I appreciate your following up on that. It's November 5, not November 7, then.

Mr. Barrett.

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

My understanding is that this committee passed a motion that no witnesses can be added without the committee having duly considered it in advance. There was quite a bit of consternation about that.

Mr. Cousineau has appeared before the committee as a witness before, so he's being recalled today without appearing on the meeting notice. We have Ms. Nicholson, who's been called specifically to answer questions. Mr. Cousineau has not been requested by the committee to be here.

Is it going to be the practice going forward that we can summon people out of the gallery to ask them questions? If so, are we going to do that today? Are we going to pull other people from the gallery? This is a very unusual practice. I don't think it's a good one, to be clear. It needs to be understood that, if it is sustained that Mr. Cousineau sit at the table, he's not permitted to speak unless questions are directly given to him. There are no questions he can answer unless they're put directly to him.

The committee didn't ask for him to be here.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I appreciate that.

On this point of order, in the past nine years I've been on this committee, when we asked for a department or person, other people could attend with them or in their stead. I am fine ruling to allow Mr. Cousineau. We have that rule. There was no one else on the motion, but it was a request from Global Affairs, and the committee has approved it.

I'm good with that, so we'll continue.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Mr. Cousineau is not permitted to answer questions if they're not directed to him.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

You do not have to ask him questions. If anyone is directing the question to Ms. Nicholson, we would expect Ms. Nicholson to respond. If we ask questions of Mr. Cousineau, we expect Mr. Cousineau to respond and not Ms. Nicholson.

If we're fine, then, we have a five-minute opening statement from Ms. Nicholson.

Please go ahead.

Emily Nicholson Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, honourable members.

I am pleased to be here to support the committee's important work to ensure full accountability and transparency in government operations, including those of Global Affairs Canada.

I will first speak about my role as chief of staff to the associate deputy minister, followed by the background and content of two emails, dated June 17, 2024 and July 25, 2024.

Turning to my role as chief of staff in the associate’s office, I sometimes liken my job to that of an air traffic controller. I serve a coordination function, providing oversight of the associate’s schedule and overseeing the flow of information between the department’s subject matter experts and the associate’s office. My work supports senior officials, enabling them to do their jobs effectively.

On occasion, I also serve a liaison function between the department and the minister's office to provide an initial overview, or quick update, on a file. The minister’s office may then ask for a full briefing by the experts who manage the file on a daily basis. Here, I summarize the best information available at the time, as provided by the file experts.

The June 17 and July 25 emails were written as part of this liaison.

I will now address the context and intent of this correspondence.

On June 14, 2024, the minister's office requested information on the department's decision to sell Canada's official residence for the consulate in New York. That request focused on the sale of the property, originally purchased in 1961, and sought confirmation that all due policies and procedures had been followed.

After gathering information from the subject experts, I provided an initial overview response on June 17. The intent of that email was to clarify and explain why the department was selling the official residence and communicate that all proper policies had been adhered to, including confirmation that the head of mission was aware of the process as per standard departmental practice. The email summarized the information provided by the subject leads at the time of the request.

In the one-page summary of the response, which focused on the sale of the official residence, one sentence did not clearly differentiate between the role of mission employees and that of the head of mission, that is, the consul general.

In that sentence, I intended to convey that the mission staff had been “instrumental” in supporting this headquarters-led process throughout the past 10 years and that the consul general was engaged and aware that a process was under way.

In that same sentence—again, drafted in the context of responding to the questions about the sale of the current residence—the word “greenlight” was intended to communicate that the consul general was aware of and prepared to accommodate the department's plan to proceed with identifying a replacement property.

The email did not state that the consul general was involved in the decision-making process, exercised influence or signed for any transactions related to the process. In hindsight, more precise language could have been used to avoid any misunderstanding. That clarification was provided on July 25.

As the detailed email on July 25 clearly shows, the consul was not part of the approval for this overall process, the selection of a replacement property or the property purchase. The consul was only shown the property selected to replace the official residence after the bid to purchase was already accepted.

In conclusion, the detailed study and examination of records related to this file demonstrated that all correct policies and procedures were followed throughout this process, with the end result being to relocate the residence to a smaller, more cost-effective property.

To ensure full transparency, I am prepared to answer any questions the committee may have regarding this correspondence.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll start our opening round with Mr. Barrett for six minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Ms. Nicholson, you understand that in your testimony today it's expected that though you haven't sworn an oath, your answers will be fulsome and truthful.

11:10 a.m.

Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Emily Nicholson

Yes, Mr. Chair, I do.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

You sent an email to Minister Joly's chief of staff on June 17, and you said both “CNGNY” and “HOM”. Can you give those acronyms for us quickly?

11:10 a.m.

Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Emily Nicholson

Certainly. CNGNY is how we refer to the consulate, and HOM is the head of mission.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Right. Also, you say, “Both CNGNY HOM and staff have been instrumental throughout this process, with the HOM providing the greenlight for the selection of the new residence.”

Did you personally have knowledge of Mr. Clark's personal involvement, or was that relayed to you? If someone relayed it to you, who was it?

11:10 a.m.

Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Emily Nicholson

Mr. Chair, as I stated in my opening remarks, my role is to summarize the information that is provided to me, the best available information at that time.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Who provided the information to you?

11:10 a.m.

Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Emily Nicholson

In gathering the information to convey and respond to the minister's office, I engaged with the property branch.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Who in the property branch?

11:10 a.m.

Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Emily Nicholson

Mr. Chair, my interaction was with Robin Dubeau, the assistant deputy minister for the property branch.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Was that the only person?

11:10 a.m.

Director and Chief of Staff of the Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Emily Nicholson

Mr. Chair, I also engaged with members of his team, including the director general for policy and planning of the property branch.