Government Operations Committee on Oct. 8th, 2024

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Boudreau, earlier you were saying that each department is responsible for doing its own audits. You've also said that at other meetings.

However, are there means in place to ensure that the audits are done, that they're done well and that there's follow-up to ensure that the department can quickly rectify the situation, if it hasn't done its audits or hasn't done them well, to prevent these errors from being repeated indefinitely?

[Annie Boudreau]

We are responsible for the internal audit community. We provide them with tools, support and training to ensure that they actually have everything they need to conduct an audit according to the standards they must follow, those of the Institute of Internal Auditors.

Each internal audit within the department must be reviewed every five years by an external administrator to ensure that its function is truly planned to give the most services possible and that it conforms to the institute's standards.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

What happens at the end of the day if they don't use the tools available to them and the errors are repeated year after year, despite the checks that are made? Is there—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid we're past our time, but you can continue in the next round.

We'll go to Mr. Bachrach, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to our witnesses for being with us this morning.

It's a little tricky to know which questions are appropriate for the Treasury Board versus ECCC, but I'll do my best.

Perhaps my first question is about whether you were surprised when you read the audit findings. Are these findings surprising?

[Annie Boudreau]

I'm not sure if I would use the word “surprising” or “disappointing”. I will use the word “disappointing” for the lack of documentation for me. I was an internal auditor for several years before being at Treasury Board, and I don't understand why people would not be documenting their decisions and documenting to have an audit trail at the end of the day. For me, it's just being professional and following values and ethics, so yes, I was disappointed.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Maybe my next question will be along those lines.

Lack of documentation is something we've seen in a number of different audits. I asked a question of a previous witness—actually, I think it was the Auditor General—who indicated that it's a very frequent audit finding that documentation is not at par.

If this is something we're seeing across government departments every time an audit is done—people within the public service not documenting things properly—does it not deserve some attention itself, as a priority of government, in order to improve documentation, so we don't see audits coming out again and again that show people aren't writing things down?

[Annie Boudreau]

Yes, it does. That's why, last year, we updated our procurement guide in order to make sure managers are following a minimum requirement. Documentation is obviously one of the elements.

I would like to go back.

As you said, it's difficult, sometimes, to make a distinction among this audit and others. In this particular case, as it was stated, the program is decentralized at ECCC. Being decentralized means you will find different processes across the regions. That's one of the findings the Prime Minister said we'll be looking at. By doing more standard processes, I would hope that, at the end of the day, the documentation is better.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Some witness testimony in a previous meeting indicated that the lack of documentation around procurement stemmed from a lack of understanding of the actual rules. The rules and processes are so complex that public servants don't understand what the requirements are in the first place.

Is that your understanding of the problem, as well?

[Annie Boudreau]

It is part of it. That's why we're working very closely with the Canada School of Public Service to put training together for every level of person involved in procurement, such as the business owner or the practitioner.

Yes, it is an issue. Sometimes it's good to have a refresher on what we're supposed to do.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll move to the topic of centralization.

One of the recommendations is around centralizing and standardizing approaches across the department and, I think, even more broadly than that, across government. It seems there would also be some drawbacks to centralization, though.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

What would those drawbacks be? It's a balance between the advantages of standardization and centralization and the ability of departments to have flexibility based on the unique conditions they face.

How do you strike the right balance in that regard?

[Annie Boudreau]

That's a very good question.

The drawback I see right away is this: If it's too centralized, we might have a bit less flexibility for recipients. This could be an issue. There is also less time to put money out the door for people who need the money.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

One of the findings had to do specifically with indigenous recipients of grants and contributions. The internal audit found that indigenous recipients were more likely to be assigned a higher risk rating, and that those higher risk ratings came with increased responsibilities around things like documentation and other processes for accountability.

Is the Treasury Board alive to the issues this creates for indigenous communities, which often have limited capacity? How do we ensure they are put in a position to effectively manage these grants and contributions, given there are often challenges around capacity?

[Annie Boudreau]

That's a good question.

When the deputy minister was here from ECCC, he talked about additional flexibility that the Treasury Board Secretariat put together for indigenous communities. In fact, it is appendix K, which outlines flexibility for indigenous recipients.

Maybe I'll turn it over to Nicole.

Do you want to provide the three elements we added?

[Nicole Thomas]

Certainly.

We've given additional instruments and methods for making those funding agreements: fixed funding, flexible funding and block funding. These are specifically outlined for indigenous recipients and their context, in order to allow them to manage...within their specific circumstances.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We will now go to our five-minute rounds.

Mrs. Kusie, please go ahead.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Would you say that the Treasury Board president has been able to give this audit her full attention?

[Annie Boudreau]

I am responsible for the internal audit function within the Government of Canada.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Would you say that the Treasury Board president has been available and present to give this audit her full attention?

[Annie Boudreau]

Usually, internal audits are the responsibility of the deputy minister, so—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Certainly, the deputy minister interacts with the President of the Treasury Board regarding important issues, such as the spending of taxpayer dollars.

Would you say that the Treasury Board president has been less available? Have you had less access to her lately?

[Annie Boudreau]

No, I would not say she is less available.

I am responsible, again, for those kinds of reports and the internal audit function. This is up to me. It is my role.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It's the Treasury Board president who is ultimately responsible.

As I'm sure you're aware, she's taken on another ministry. It's very concerning to me that she's being spread too thin. She's not able to give this audit or the oversight of taxpayer dollars her full attention. We have a part-time President of the Treasury Board right now, given that she's managing these two files. I was shadow minister for transport during the pandemic. I can tell you that this is a very taxing file, overseeing all the airlines and train travel, especially now, with the shortcomings we've seen in our critical supply chains. I'm very concerned that the evidence we are receiving, through this report, indicates that we have a President of the Treasury Board who is unable to give her entire attention to the oversight of taxpayer dollars.

What would you say to that?