Government Operations Committee on Oct. 17th, 2024

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

Thank you, Ms. Paquette.

Unfortunately, Ms. Vignola, I can't comment on why it takes so long. One of our mandates is to work with companies to help them better understand procurement requirements.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay, thank you.

Who is responsible for determining how companies can be certified to do business with the Government of Canada?

[Joëlle Paquette]

For indigenous businesses, it's Indigenous Services Canada.

Any company can do business with the Government of Canada and register on the CanadaBuys website. When measures are put in place specifically for indigenous businesses, we want to see certain results. Businesses that are not certified by Indigenous Services Canada would not have access to those contracts, which are set aside for indigenous people.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay. If I understand correctly, we need to talk to Indigenous Services Canada.

What is the government doing to ensure that the procurement process is accessible to small businesses in general and indigenous small businesses in particular?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I'll let Mr. Lawrence-Whyte handle that.

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

Thank you for the question.

One of the key objectives or responsibilities of Procurement Assistance Canada—

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Rogers.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I'm not sure what the interpreters are hearing, but I'm getting an awful lot of crackling noises in my headset. I'm not sure if it's my headset or if other people are hearing them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Is anyone else experiencing any crackling? I'm hearing perfectly fine.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Well, I haven't been for the last five minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Hold on. We'll suspend for a second.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Rogers, are you okay if we continue and IT gives you a phone call to see if we can work it out?

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll continue, Mrs. Vignola, and then we'll have IT call Mr. Rogers.

The time is restarting. Go ahead, Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'll go back to my question.

What concrete actions is the government taking to facilitate the process, reduce red tape, and so on?

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

Thank you for the question.

One of the key elements of our mandate at Procurement Assistance Canada is to work closely with small and medium-sized businesses to help them. When we meet with a company, it's important to explain the necessary steps, some of which are very important, such as registering on CanadaBuys.

In addition, our people work directly with companies to explain their responsibilities and how they can bid on tenders. We explain all the tools and all the types of procurement that are available. We help businesses, but it is important for them to understand the products and services available to them so they can seize the opportunities most likely to ensure their success. We've had some success this year.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Let's say I can explain string theory. That doesn't mean the person I'm explaining it to will be able to use that theory in their work or that my explanation will make the theory simpler and more accessible. That is more or less what's happening here. You can explain the processes and the steps, but that doesn't make them simpler or more accessible, particularly for small and medium-sized businesses.

I just wanted to end my six minutes with that thought.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for their patience with our technical challenges.

After listening to the responses, I think our witnesses have deferred many of the questions to Indigenous Services Canada. This may have been covered in the opening introduction, but I wonder whether you could very briefly sum up PSPC's role with regard to indigenous procurement, separate from the role of Indigenous Services Canada.

[Joëlle Paquette]

Our role is to meet the 5% target by trying to incorporate certain measures within our contracts and by encouraging indigenous businesses to participate in bidding on our contracts. We need to meet the 5% target, and we're doing a lot of engagement to do that. We have discussions with our clients, either client departments or those within PSPC, on how they can incorporate indigenous businesses into what they require—either directly or as a subcontractor to the prime—by developing plans.

Our role is to develop tools and clauses that will encourage indigenous businesses to participate in our contracts. Then we help our client departments, which are not always in PSPC but other departments, as a common service provider. We also encourage them to incorporate indigenous participation in their particular requirements and contracts.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

If I understand the division of labour correctly, Indigenous Services Canada is entirely responsible for the determination of what constitutes an indigenous business—the criteria and the registration of those businesses in the directory—while PSPC takes that as accurate and tries to ensure that as many contracts as possible go to businesses that are so registered, in order to meet the 5% target. This committee study has pointed to very serious and troubling discrepancies and situations that question the integrity of that process.

Has PSPC ever raised concerns about ISC's certification process and the directory and the possibility of fraud or misrepresentation in the list of indigenous businesses?

[Joëlle Paquette]

We are supportive of Indigenous Services Canada, and they are setting the rules and the definitions we need to follow. We have discussions on how best to incorporate more indigenous businesses in our procurement. Through PAC, we also make sure there's good communication with indigenous businesses and indigenous representation, and they have those discussions directly with Indigenous Services Canada.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

My understanding is that one of PSPC's roles is to ensure the overall integrity of government procurement. It's been obvious to many people that there are serious and systemic problems with the indigenous procurement process. Has PSPC conveyed any of those concerns to the client departments you work with?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I'm not aware of that. As I said, they're responsible for Indigenous Services Canada and the IBD list, and we follow that list. When we put a contract in place, our 5% target can only be accounted for using that particular list. If a company is not registered in the IBD, it does not count against our 5% target.