Government Operations Committee on Oct. 17th, 2024

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time.

Mrs. Atwin, go ahead, please.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Broadly, the 5% procurement target is considered a minimum rather than a maximum value. Is that correct?

[Joëlle Paquette]

That's correct.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

What best practices are undertaken by organizations that exceed the 5% target?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I don't know their best practices. I know that we are trying to develop best practices. We are aiming to increase the number of indigenous firms participating in our contracts by either directing or making sure that indigenous firms are part of the discussion we're having with other government departments when we're looking at their requirements. Then we can possibly put different measures in place to ensure that indigenous businesses participate in our procurement activities.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

In your opinion or through your expertise from being in this role, do you think the 5% target is a good thing and fosters the economic reconciliation that we've been trying to achieve?

[Joëlle Paquette]

Yes, I think it is a good thing. From an economic perspective, we want procurement to help indigenous communities—through training and an increase in jobs. The more participation there is in federal government contracts, the more indigenous firms will participate in them and will have some success. I think the 5% target is a start.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Have you personally heard any evidence of wrongdoing or misrepresentation by indigenous businesses listed on the indigenous business directory?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I have not. If there is something, I would strongly suggest that Indigenous Services Canada be communicated with. They will have to look into it because that is their role.

Clinton might have something to add.

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

I would agree. In terms of the best practices point you raised, which is really important, we have found that working very closely with indigenous communities is important. They're able to help us identify businesses that could be best suited for certain procurements. We've certainly seen that through our work in the north of Canada, for example, with the Inuit. We work very closely with some of the economic development organizations rooted in the community. Working with partners from the community is critically important. Departments that are establishing those connections are having success.

From our side, the Government of Canada side, it's about getting ahead of the curve by identifying procurements that would be well placed for indigenous participation, getting out to the communities, talking to the businesses and finding out if they're comfortable with what they need to do to actively compete. We want to get businesses “bid ready”, which is one of the terms we use, and that's where some of the work we do with indigenous firms will come into play.

If we get early notice by working with departments that give us that kind of advance, we can get out and identify community partners, work with the businesses that could be well placed and make sure that when the procurement hits the street, we'll have success. We've had success in every region, with indigenous firms that we can speak to that have been successful.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much.

There are some broad claims being made in some of the preambles to the questions being asked by some of my fellow committee members. I'm just wondering if they know something more than we know. Which businesses are we talking about as far as those that are non-compliant go? There's evidence we need to uncover, and I don't think we've done that.

I really thank you for what you've been able to bring to the table today with regard to broad procurement policy and what PSPC is doing on its side to encourage the participation of indigenous businesses. I love hearing about the outreach, the networking and you visiting communities, specifically remote locations. All of that is critically important. It speaks to the mandate the government has put forward in that very important relationship we have with indigenous peoples, and economic reconciliation is a key pillar of that.

I'm grateful for the discussion today, and thank you very much for being here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mrs. Atwin.

We'll go to Mr. Lawrence.

Welcome back to OGGO, Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

I must admit that I'm not normally a member of this committee, but I've been watching with some awe at the lack of accountability with respect to your department, Ms. Paquette. Do you feel that your department is doing an adequate job of detecting irregularities and even fraud within indigenous procurement?

[Joëlle Paquette]

We put contracts in place. If the contracts are for the delivery of services or goods, whether those services or goods are delivered is the main concern. If a company is certified by Indigenous Services Canada and has met the certification requirements of Indigenous Services Canada, there is no fraud, as you've pointed out. They are delivering their services or goods to either PSPC or another government department.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Can you tell me how many contracts specifically dealing with indigenous procurement your department has stopped because of not fulfilling the contractual obligations your department has put out?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I don't have that information.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Could you provide that information to our committee?

[Joëlle Paquette]

If we have that information, yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

You may not have the information as to how many contracts have been stopped because of individuals or companies not fulfilling their obligations. Is that possible?

[Joëlle Paquette]

We will provide the information. I don't know if we have it specifically stated that way. We will look into it.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

You mentioned earlier that you have not hit the 5% target. Is that correct?

[Joëlle Paquette]

That's correct.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Where are you at? What percentage are you at right now?

[Joëlle Paquette]

We hit 2.7% in 2022-23, and we were at 3.4%, or $143 million, in 2023-24. I do not have the numbers for 2024-25, but my understanding is that with a lot of the efforts we've made through engagement and increasing participation in different activities in procurement, we're getting close to our 5% target. However, I don't have the number yet for this year because the year is not finished.