Government Operations Committee on April 29th, 2022

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Tassi, we are talking about new treatments, but I want to come back to the contracts that were signed with Moderna, Pfizer and AstraZeneca.

Is it possible, on the one hand, to know the value of these contracts and, on the other hand, to see these contracts?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I appreciate your concern in wanting to see those contracts.

When we enter into contracts, there are times, because there's commercially sensitive information, that those contracts have to be kept confidential. We share whatever we can share, but in this instance, because the cost is commercially sensitive information, it cannot be shared.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I wonder, because in other countries in the world, elected representatives were able to see the contracts signed with the same companies. Why are there clauses in Canada that prevent elected representatives from seeing the contracts and that prevent the public from knowing how much it cost?

Everyone is happy to be protected. In this respect, we did a great job for sure. However, people like to know how much of their tax money was used. In Canada, we can't know, but elsewhere they can.

Why is there this sort of nebulousness around something that we paid for out of our own pockets? If we want to raise people's awareness so that they pay even more attention to their health, there is no better way than to tell them how much it cost.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I understand your question. I would say in response that we don't want to risk the health and safety of Canadians by not getting a contract because we can't sign the contract because we can't abide by the terms. Because this is commercially sensitive information, we are not able to share what the cost of the vaccine is.

We have shared redacted documents with the health committee, which has asked for this information, and it—

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, but why does Canada have confidentiality clauses that other countries don't have? Why do we have this cloak of secrecy on contracts? I don't understand the logic. I don't have anything against you or the former minister, but I'm trying to understand why we have a cloak of secrecy on contracts here that they don't have elsewhere.

Was it self-imposed? Did the companies impose it on Canada? Why does it apply to us, but not to others?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I know that other countries have also shared redacted information, but I think because the question is very specific, I would turn it to my officials.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister.

Given the time constraints, if the officials would kindly provide that information to the committee in writing, it would be appreciated.

We'll go to Mr. Johns. Mr. Johns may want to pursue that same line of questioning. He has two and a half minutes

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, you suggested that safe supply is not a procurement issue. Why are vaccines for COVID-19 a procurement issue but a safe supply is not? Vaccines save lives. Safe supply saves lives. If COVID-19 and the toxic drug epidemic are both public health emergencies, what's the difference? The difference is stigma, Minister, the stigma that devalues the lives lost to the poisoned drug supply.

Your colleague, the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, told the CBC that safe supply “is going to be the way that we will save the most lives,” and yet the minister has not committed to a timeline for expanding access to safe supply, saying research is needed before it can be scaled up. Why is your government wasting time on pilot programs instead of ensuring that a safe supply is available across Canada?

Minister, with respect to stigma, your government keeps saying it's a health issue. It's in the amount of money you spend, it's in your policies, it's in the criminalization of people and it's in the laws that your government stands up for. What are you going to do about it? You're the minister of procurement.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thanks, MP Johns.

Look, again, you're championing this cause. I totally understand that and I appreciate all of your efforts, but the departments are the clients. PSPC procures what the departments ask for. For example, in defence, we procure what defence brings forward as what they feel they need in order to protect the military—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I get it, Minister, but you're sitting at the cabinet table, and 20 people a day are dying. This is the leading killer between the ages of 19 and 39 in unnatural deaths in the province of British Columbia. It's more than homicides, more than motor vehicle accidents and more than all other unnatural deaths combined.

This is unacceptable. This response is unacceptable, and you're part of a cabinet that hasn't taken action to respond to this crisis. I'm asking you, as the procurement minister, to reach out to the Minister of Health and offer what you can to respond as you did with COVID-19. This has killed more people in my province of British Columbia than COVID-19.

You're the procurement minister and you got a lot of vaccines to British Columbia. Thank you for that. It saved lives. I need you to get a safe supply to British Columbia and the people across this country. People have to stop dying.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We will now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have just a very quick question, and I hope for a relatively quick answer.

On the F-35s, walk me through the next few months between now and our finalizing a deal with them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I heard somewhere that it may end up breaking off at the end and that we'll have to go to choice number two. Is that correct?

Can you just walk me through what would happen that could lead to that and what we're working on right now? Is it just the price?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Right now, the process in finalization is that the bid that was presented had to be put into a contract, and the details and specifics have to be agreed to by both parties that reflect the bid that was presented. We are hopeful that we can get to that point before the end of this year, but it is not guaranteed.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What would be a trigger that would make us walk away and end up with the Saab?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I would pass that over to my officials.

[Simon Page]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

I don't want to speak about specific triggers here. We are in a finalization phase. This is a live procurement process, and this live finalization phase equals the negotiations. Discussing specific aspects of the procurement here is highly delicate.

To the question about the next few months, we kick-started the finalization phase a few weeks ago. We expect this finalization phase to unfold over the next few months. We remain ambitious to have a deal by the end of 2022 with the—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sorry, Mr. Page. Let me interrupt.

On the talk of the negotiations not working and having to go to the backup one, is that just more of a last resort type of thing that probably will not happen, or is it a valid threat, for a lack of better words, to Lockheed, so that everyone stays open to the negotiations?

We didn't have it for the ships, such as, “Well, we'll go with the FREMM if we can't work it out with the T26.” We haven't done this before, as far I am aware. Why is it in the F-35 negotiations?

[Simon Page]

You are very right. This was not done for other procurements. Actually, the process that we established, with the option of going to finalization or entering into a dialogue at a given point into the solicitation process, was novel for the future fighter capability project.

At the outset, we knew this procurement was critical for the country, critical for—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Page, we know all of that. Please, you just seem to be burning my time here. It's a simple question: Why is that hanging over this with the possibility that we are going to walk away from Lockheed and end up with Saab?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I'm going to respond to that.

The process is that the bidders put in their bids and the selection process chooses the best bid, but now it has to be brought down to a binding contract that is going to reflect what was in the bid. This part of the negotiation takes seven to nine months, I believe, because it's critical. This is the legal document. This is going to be what our contract for the procuring of 88 fighter jets rests on. It's critical that we get this right, and it is critical—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You understand my concern. We haven't done this with other, larger contracts either.

Let me ask you quickly. Regarding this $15-billion phantom spending in the budget for defence—and I realize it's up to defence to tell us what that's for, and they don't quite seem to know—does PSPC have the capacity to spend $15 billion and follow up the newly updated “Strong, Secure, Engaged” spending, which I think shows a 30% increase over the next 10 years, starting in 2025, over the original “Strong, Secure, Engaged” spending plan?

We are massively behind. We don't have the capacity now to procure....

What makes us think we can do the $15 billion extra next year as well as this massive increase in the SSE spending that's now showing?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

That is a question for my officials.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I've run out of time. I wasn't going to get an answer from them anyway, but thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley. If the officials can provide that answer to the committee, it would be appreciated.

We will now go to Mr. Kusmierczyk for five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Minister, for being here with us for two hours and sharing two hours of your time. We've covered a broad swath of questions, so I really do appreciate your insight and your sharing your expertise and answers with us.

According to the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, indigenous people are creating new businesses at nine times the Canadian average. There is a tremendous amount of potential there. I know that PSPC has been doing a lot of good work to improve diversity of indigenous businesses in the supply chain of the federal government.

What are some specific challenges you have faced while working on increasing indigenous diversity there, and what are some positive stories as well?