Government Operations Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2022

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I think I went over last time, Mr. Chair, so I'll give my time back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

We'll go to Ms. Thompson for five minutes.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

My questions are for Treasury Board. I want to circle back to a question my colleague asked on the outsourcing of nurses, particularly in northern communities. My question is about the chief nursing officer. Is this person now involved in the outsourcing of nursing services in northern communities?

[Emilio Franco]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

Unfortunately, I cannot speak for the chief nursing officer. If there is a question regarding their practices, you may wish to invite them to speak to the committee.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I'm wondering if they would be consulted in terms of the very real need in Canada around nursing and primary health care services. Would you see a consulting role for the chief nursing officer?

[Emilio Franco]

Thank you for the question.

I would say that departments that are making decisions regarding nursing services would likely look to a variety of areas of information to support their decision. That may include the chief nursing officer, but I can't speak to the specific role or their involvement in those decisions.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.

The President of the Treasury Board's mandate letter instructed her to explore, within the context of the public service skills strategy, “potential pathways to improve recruiting from outside of the Public Service for short-term or permanent roles”. Could you speak to how the federal government is able to improve its outsourcing practices?

[Emilio Franco]

Thank you for the question.

I've highlighted throughout the testimony that our new directive puts a stronger focus on ensuring that procurements are managed in a way that delivers real results for Canadians. It's consistent with our socio-economic and environmental objectives. One of the things our new policy frame put in place in May of this year allows that broader balance of not just cost but also socio-economic outcomes.

In terms of improving our outsourcing practices, we have an opportunity moving forward, particularly supported by the activities of Public Services and Procurement Canada through their social procurement programs, to look at how we can incorporate some of these broader considerations when we are outsourcing. That's in terms of achieving benefits for Canadians and also achieving things like our 5% commitment with indigenous businesses either directly or through subcontracting.

There are a number of opportunities to improve how we outsource, particularly in terms of how those outsourced procurements can incorporate a broader value for Canadians through the various objectives we have at hand.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Could you speak to situations where outsourcing of services ensures better value for taxpayers, if indeed this exists at all?

[Emilio Franco]

Thank you for the question.

I would be remiss to speak to specific examples that are outside my areas of expertise. Perhaps my colleagues within Shared Services Canada or Public Services and Procurement Canada can speak to real examples in which they obtain value from some of their outsourcing engagements.

[Patrice Nadeau]

Thank you. Maybe I can start.

When it comes to IT, especially with the managed service, those services are more and more commoditized-type services. It just does not make sense for the government to build its own cellular network, for example, or satellite-type services. This is where we go to the private sector and we typically purchase those services as fully managed services.

In my opening remarks, I also mentioned our wide area network and all of the fibre and circuits—it doesn't matter if it's fibre or copper—connecting the 4,000 locations we have across the country. Again, we're taking advantage of commercial services. From a business point of view, it's just best practice. This is the right thing to do. It always results in a lower IT cost to the government.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I think I have 30 seconds left.

Is there a mechanism by which you can quantify or qualify that service and the effectiveness of the outsourcing?

[Patrice Nadeau]

Thank you for the question.

In terms of quantifying it in dollars, I don't know. Typically, we go through a competitive process. There is a statement of work. We establish service-level agreements with those organizations. Then they are measured based on the performance. They have to meet the service level so they can invoice us as per the contract. If not, penalties will be applied.

It's difficult for me at this point to quantify in dollars the advantage of the outsourcing deals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I was recently informed of a situation where lawn maintenance and groundskeeping work was contracted out by the Department of National Defence:

Management proceeded with this decision despite the assertions, accompanied by a business case, of UNDE [the Union of National Defence Employees] local and national officers, that sending the work to the private sector would not save money. Personnel were assigned elsewhere, and equipment was removed from the base inventory. In the spring and summer of 2020, the private contractor failed to meet the requirements of the contract. Scheduled military activities depend on grounds that are properly prepared. Public service workers were ordered to complete the work—without the necessary personnel and without the appropriate equipment—work that the contractor is being compensated for, thus the actual cost of completion is even greater than the cost of the contract.

Governments always underwrite the risk when private contractors are involved. What risk mitigation strategies are in place to ensure that this sort of thing doesn't happen? Wouldn't it be easier to have the work done in-house?

[Emilio Franco]

As I highlighted, from a Treasury Board policy perspective, there are requirements regarding the performance and the management of performance of our contractors, particularly that there's monitoring and oversight in place to ensure that contractors are performing to the requirements of the contract and that our contracting professionals are working closely with their clients, the individuals who may be receiving these services, to make sure they're monitoring and documenting the issues of poor performance.

I cannot, unfortunately, speak to the specific contract or decision that you've highlighted. It may be something that you wish to invite the department responsible to speak to.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

I'm going to move a motion in the context of this study. I've sent it for translation, but they can't get it back in time. I'm hoping that the committee will agree to it. I'll read it into the record.

That, in the context of its study of outsourcing of contracts, the committee write to the Auditor General of Canada to recommend an audit of the implementation of the Treasury Board's Guide to Cost Estimating by departments in relation to make-or-buy decisions and oversight of the Treasury Board with respect to the same.

It's stronger coming from the committee versus coming from me as an individual MP. I can't see why anyone would object to it.

Mr. Chair, is it possible to move this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you. It's in order, in the sense that it's considered part of the study.

It's a question of whether you want to debate that or have a question on it or—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'd like to have it read, at least. I understand.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It's just because we're in the middle of the study and right now translation is working on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Clerk, go ahead.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Paul Cardegna]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll just say, for the benefit of the committee, that Mr. Johns has sent the text of the motion to me. I sent it for an emergency translation about a half an hour ago, but I have not yet received the translation. I cannot distribute anything on behalf of the committee that is unilingual. I cannot distribute the text.

If the committee wishes to reread the text into the record, the interpreters are following along and they do have the text as well, but I cannot distribute the text at this time. However, there is no prohibition for Mr. Johns moving the motion or the committee entertaining debate on it, even though the French text is not currently available.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

Ms. Vignola has asked...and I see Mr. Housefather's hand is up too, so I will recognize him.

Before we do that, I'm going to thank the witnesses for participating today and for all of you having a chance to say something to the committee. All three of you were asked to provide further information, so when you collect that information, if you give it to the clerk, the clerk will distribute it to the committee.

At this point in time, I will dismiss the witnesses for today. Thank you for being here with us.

Mr. Johns has put forward a motion.

Mr. Housefather, go ahead.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was wondering if you and Mr. Johns would be amenable, given that we don't have a copy of the motion, to put in some time in Thursday's meeting to discuss it. Perhaps we could add Ms. Vignola's as well. That would give us a proper amount of time, maybe at the end of the meeting, to have a more fulsome debate of both. I'd like to have a chance to see this in writing and discuss it with my colleagues.

The same is true of Ms. Vignola's motion. There would have to be amendments to that one as well. I'd prefer it if we could have more time to discuss it, rather than do it in six minutes at the end of a meeting.

I was wondering, Mr. Chair, if that might be possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Housefather, are you moving a motion to adjourn the debate on this issue?