Government Operations Committee on Nov. 21st, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Welcome, everyone. We'll get going on meeting number 40 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, a.k.a. OGGO.

We'll go from 11 o'clock.... Apparently, there will be a vote today at one o'clock. I'm seeking everyone's agreement that, rather than break when the bells go at 12:30, we will, because we're in the same building, go right up to, say, 10 minutes to one, and then we'll adjourn and go vote.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

: Thanks very much.

In the first hour, we have Minister Fortier for one hour, and then we'll have Treasury Board officials afterwards.

Minister Fortier, welcome back. I understand you have a five-minute opening statement for us.

[Mona Fortier, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and congratulations on your new role presiding over this very important committee.

Welcome to the other new members of this OGGO committee.

It's a pleasure for me to appear this morning to discuss supplementary estimates (B), 2022-23. Of course, before I continue, I'd like to acknowledge that we are here today on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

As you can see, I am with my senior officials from the Treasury Board Secretariat: Annie Boudreau, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; Karen Cahill, assistant secretary and chief financial officer for the Treasury Board; Carole Bidal, associate assistant deputy minister, employee relations and total compensation; Monia Lahaie, assistant comptroller general, financial management sector; Samantha Tattersall, assistant comptroller general, acquired services and assets sector; Kelly Acton, assistant deputy minister, policy and performance sector; and Paul Wagner, assistant deputy minister, strategy and transformation. I am very glad that they are here with me, and I want to thank them for their hard work.

These supplementary estimates provide information on spending requirements that were not sufficiently developed at the time of the main estimates or that were subsequently refined to reflect new changes.

As several initiatives were not developed in time to be reflected in the supplementary estimates (A), this fiscal year was lighter than the one covered by the supplementary estimates (B), which requires more spending. Nevertheless, when combined, the voted budgetary appropriations in the two budgets are consistent with last year's. I felt it was important to start with that information.

This fall, the government is asking Parliament to approve $20.8 billion in voted budgetary appropriations to allow 87 institutions to address issues of importance to Canadians. For information purposes, the supplementary estimates also include $5 billion in statutory budgetary expenditures, which includes $2 billion for a one-time top‑up this summer to the provinces and territories as part of the Canada health transfer.

The amounts in these supplementary estimates are higher than usual. Most of this increase can be attributed to indigenous claims, settlement agreements and investments in infrastructure and essential services for indigenous communities.

I would like to provide an overview of some of the significant amounts requested in this year's supplementary estimates. For example, the following amounts are being requested by Crown‑Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada: $3 billion for out-of-court settlements; $677.6 million to replenish the specific claims settlement fund; $673.5 million to settle first nations Treaty 8 Land Entitlement specific claims; $673 million to fund childhood claims, abuse, compensation and administration costs for the federal Indian day schools and sixties scoop settlement agreements; and $458.2 million for self-governing and modern treaty first nation, Inuit and Métis housing.

Other key measures in these supplementary estimates include $1.5 billion to the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness for the disaster financial assistance arrangements program. This program, which provides financial assistance to provincial and territorial governments, will cover the costs associated with the natural disasters that occurred in British Columbia, such as the 2020 floods and landslides and the 2021 fires, floods and landslides.

In addition, $732 million was provided to the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development to support access by developing countries to vaccines, therapeutics and diagnostics to fight COVID‑19.

If you give me one more minute, I will conclude.

Mr. Chair, open, transparent, and accountable government means ensuring that parliamentarians and Canadians know how public funds are being invested on their behalf. This is why, in addition to estimates documents, we continue to make use of reporting tools such as GC InfoBase and the Open Government portal. These tools, of course, present easy-to-understand information to Canadians about the authorities that are approved by Parliament.

Mr. Chair, these estimates demonstrate our government's ongoing commitment to Canadians' priorities at home and abroad.

I will thank you again and be ready to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister.

Mrs. Kusie, you have six minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, thank you for being here today. I know there is a by‑election coming up, but we're in a different role today.

I also want to thank your colleagues for coming here today. It's great to see such a power group of women. We really appreciate your coming today to discuss the supplementary estimates.

However, I'm a little bit troubled. Inflation, of course, is at 6.9% right now. The numbers just came out last week. This is from the high of 8.1% that we saw in June. There are certainly many discussions internationally about the reasons for these high inflation rates that we're seeing. Of course, we see the price of oil increasing as a result of the war in Ukraine. Coming from the Prairies—Alberta—I'm always interested in the price of oil. We understand that it's as a result of China and supply chains.

Many economists, including Jon Hartley and John Cochrane, who wrote this article I'm referring to here, as well as one of my favourites, Jack Mintz, agree that the main cause of this inflation crisis that we're seeing in Canada is inflationary spending.

You, Madame Fortier, are responsible for the spending for the Government of Canada. Wouldn't you have to say that you are responsible for the inflationary crisis we're seeing now as a result of inflationary spending, as President of the Treasury Board in overseeing this?

[Mona Fortier]

Thank you.

Again, congratulations for being at this committee and for your new critic role.

As we know, in the last two years we've been through a very important pandemic, and there was disruption in the whole world. This is a global issue that we're facing. Canada did step up and we should be proud of where we are.

However, we also know that people are struggling in Canada, and the cost of living is something that is top of mind for Canadians. We also have this top of mind, and that's why we've done targeted investments in the last few months to make sure that Canadians can have the support they need to go through the difficulties they have right now. For example, we have the double credit for GST, and Canadians started to receive their cheques—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister Fortier, I think we're familiar with the benefit—thank you very much.

[Mona Fortier]

That's why I'm very proud to say that we are looking—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

Minister Fortier, one key mandate of the Treasury Board is “effective management of the public purse”, providing “guidance so that resources are soundly managed across government with a focus on results and on value for money.” If the public purse were managed effectively, we wouldn't be seeing the massive inflationary spending by your government, resulting in inflation rates that we haven't seen in 40 years. Wouldn't you say that's accurate?

[Mona Fortier]

I think you can see in the supplementary estimates how we are producing and showing Canadians that we are soundly managing our government's purse and supporting Canadians and the many—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister Fortier, unfortunately the subtitle provided by the Parliamentary Budget Officer is that the government wants another $21 billion. It's not very flattering.

If the Treasury Board was in fact not meeting its mandate of effectively managing the public purse, if there was no effective oversight of the billions of dollars that this government continues to shell out, resulting in higher inflation, can you not take responsibility for that, Minister Fortier? As the individual who oversees the public purse, which economists agree is responsible for the inflationary spending we're seeing and therefore the high inflation rates, can you take responsibility for that?

[Mona Fortier]

Again, I'd like to demonstrate the fact that in the last two years we've been in this very difficult pandemic. It has disrupted supply chains and also the cost of living.

We know inflation is high. Our country is in a better position than many other G7 countries. We have also made sure that we are bringing targeted supports to help those vulnerable Canadians who are having a hard time right now. We will continue to monitor this.

I'm working closely, of course, with the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance to make sure that what she has brought forward in the budget, we are spending accordingly, and that we have the necessary authorities to make sure the departments are moving forward with results.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What she has brought forward, Minister Fortier, is $6.1 billion of new spending and the $36.4-billion deficit this fiscal year alone.

Now, the Parliamentary Budget Officer was actually being kind when he said $21 billion, because your government, of course, is actually asking Parliament for another $25.78 billion. Why hasn't the government adopted the pay-as-you-go model, or why haven't they looked at it until this point, do you think?

I know the Deputy Prime Minister is finally starting to consider this. She's mentioned this to your cabinet. Why did it take so long for you and the Deputy Prime Minister to consider the pay-as-you-go model?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give a very brief 20-second answer, please.

[Mona Fortier]

As I said, we are showing today in the budget estimates that we are looking forward to Parliament adopting this so that we can continue the work to support Canadians in all of the amounts that are in front of us today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll go to Ms. Thompson for six minutes, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly I want to welcome the minister to committee. Thank you for your support within the department.

I'd like to fall back on questions, Minister, that you answered the last time you came to OGGO, and really the ongoing support for public sector workers.

To begin, could you speak to whether any agreements with the bargaining agents have taken place? Are there any updates there?

[Mona Fortier]

Thank you.

As you know, we are continuing in current negotiations with 27 different tables. I'm very glad to say we have a tentative agreement on collective bargaining with one of them—ACFO—which is the financial officers. This is a group of 6,500 public servants.

I think we did a very good job together to have representation to what taxpayers will accept, and also making sure we recognize the hard work of these public servants. We will, of course, continue to work with all the other tables, because we have public servants who have been reliable and working with our government, and we will continue to do these negotiations together.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Minister, would you update the committee, please, on the work to protect whistle-blowers?

[Mona Fortier]

Yes, of course. That is a very good question, Ms. Thompson.

Our government, of course, believes that those who disclose serious wrongdoing need to be protected. The law provides a secure and confidential process for disclosing serious wrongdoings in the workplace and protection from acts of reprisal.

Public servant disclosures result in an average of 10 findings of wrongdoing every year. You know that Canada's whistle-blowing law is part of the recourse options that cover harassment, discrimination, labour grievances and privacy complaints, and our government is supporting with some training, monitoring and reporting on policies on workplaces and harassment.

Budget 2022, as you probably recall, funded a review of the act, which will begin this year. I'm pleased to say that we're currently finalizing the panel that will help us do this work. Therefore, I can say that we will be doing that review very soon.

Thank you for asking the question.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Would you please provide information on why the International Bar Association ranked Canada's whistle-blowing protection last?

[Mona Fortier]

If you don't mind, I can answer that one in French to balance things.

You asked why the International Bar Association ranked Canada's whistleblower protection last.

The association's report contains many errors. For example, it ignores the fact that the constitutional separation of powers in Canada prevents Parliament from imposing a whistleblower regime on provincial and municipal governments and most of the private sector, which falls under provincial jurisdiction. The report also ignores provincial and territorial whistleblower regimes and other mechanisms for redress in the event of ethical breaches. Therefore, this report makes many errors.

We're actually very proud of what we offer to Canadians and public servants.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Regarding bilingualism, how are we improving supports for bilingualism among public servants, and why is that so important?

[Mona Fortier]

I can tell you that it is very important. We have to be proud of our official languages and how our public servants serve Canadians from coast to coast in both official languages. We have been effectively delivering those services.

As you know, we are currently revising and modernizing the Official Languages Act, which, when passed, will give Treasury Board a new role as a central agency that can evaluate and better monitor the work being done with the departments.

The other thing is this: We will, of course, continue to develop different tools, such as training tools and ways to make sure that new second-language training is offered to public servants to better serve Canadians. That is another highlight of the work we're doing at Treasury Board.