Evidence of meeting #62 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
You reminded us, as well, in one of your articles that about one in five Canadians work for the public sector. It's the largest employer in Canada. You also reminded us that there are public servants not just at the federal level but also at the provincial level and the municipal level.
Are there avenues for the exchange of best practices between federal public servants and their provincial and municipal counterparts? Does that happen?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes. I used to have conversations with provincial cabinet secretaries on a fairly regular basis—not as much as I'd like to in their other forums. There are groups—
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, on management. That tended to be what we would actually get together on because we didn't want to argue about climate change or some other issue.
That's why I think bodies like the Institute of Public Administration of Canada and Public Policy Forum provide a really valuable place for people who work at different levels of government to come together to share ideas and to learn from each other.
One of my specific recommendations in the Globe and Mail article is to invest in that supply chain. We need a more robust supply chain.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Do we create enough space in the public sector for grassroots, bottom-up innovation, design-thinking innovation?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There has been a lot of work on that. I can only speak to it up to 2019, but we had an incubator within the Privy Council Office that was specifically designed to go out there and look for leading edge practices in behavioural economics and different approaches. The Treasury Board Secretariat sponsored an innovation fair at least once a year, which allowed public servants to come and pitch.... It was a sort of Dragon's Den approach to generating ideas.
You'd better put that to my successors or to the secretary of the Treasury Board. Public services always try to look ahead and develop innovations. My general argument is that we don't do nearly enough of that.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
You have minus three seconds. You're in debt, like the government.
We'll go to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, please.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wernick, I believe you were the clerk of the Privy Council until 2019. Is that correct?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That is correct.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
You now offer consulting services through your firm, Kanada Advisory Services.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm sorry, I misheard.
Bloc
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm sorry. Yes, I have my own consulting firm. I have had a few small contracts since I left the government.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay.
Is it your opinion, as certain witnesses have in fact said, that the federal public service is archaic, at least in certain regards?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It consists of over 300 organizations. Some are excellent and very modern and some are a bit outdated and have problems, like the armed forces.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Could you give me some examples of cases where the public service is archaic?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I left the government in 2019. I wasn't there for the pandemic. Based on my experience as an individual, the public service, whether federal, provincial or municipal, served Canadians very well during the pandemic. That is the best evidence.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
So we are being well served, in spite of the flaws we know about. I don't know whether the people who waited 48 hours in the rain for their passports would agree with you.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
We can't generalize based on one service provided by the government.
Bloc
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The attention paid by the media and politicians to mistakes and problems is entirely understandable. However, there are many other services that are working very well, but that is not likely to interest the media.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
When the government awards billions of dollars over several years to consulting firms just to get an outside viewpoint, does that not seem like a pretext to you? If the government is working so well, does spending several billion dollars to get an outside viewpoint not seem excessive to you?