Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Was Mr. Ossowski truthful and honest in his presentation to this committee?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I couldn't say more than that I don't know that he really represented or stuck up for the people who would have expected him to.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Was Ms. O'Gorman truthful, fulsome and honest?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I wouldn't think so.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Would you be able to detail for this committee, in writing, the areas in which they were dishonest and not fulsome in their replies?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Would you be able to undertake to provide that to the committee in...?

What's the standard time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It's three weeks.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Would you be able to provide it within a couple of days—two days?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I believe that you have a lot of it in my submission already, but I will undertake to do it within 72 hours, if that's acceptable.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Cameron MacDonald]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett and Mr. MacDonald.

Go ahead, Mr. Kusmierczyk, please.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. MacDonald, the brief that we have received states, “Botler AI wanted to circumvent the procurement and contracting structure and contract directly with the CBSA.” Can you explain that?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Utano would be better to explain it, because that happened after I left.

[Antonio Utano]

I provided those subsequent emails after resolution. Miss Dutt had comments in those emails asking if they could engage in a direct contract, to which we replied that we would have to go for a whole new contracting process. Her dissolution or removal from the partnership was totally up to her, but we would have to go to CBSA's contracting and procurement department to even begin those conversations.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

They wouldn't qualify as a vendor. Is that correct?

[Antonio Utano]

I'm not the procurement expert; I'll be completely honest. Since there's a separation of roles, responsibilities and duties, I would lean to my procurement colleagues in that.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, maybe I can help the member understand.

My understanding is that in quarter three of 2021, at some point Botler did qualify on an invitation to qualify for AI companies, but that's not a standing offer, and that doesn't mean you qualify to work with the federal government. It means you can qualify for the RFP process, so it would be an invitation to qualify for RFPs. It wouldn't necessarily make you certified with PSPC for a standing offer for the government just to go give you a contract and do work directly.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You couldn't just grant that contract directly from CBSA. There would have to be a whole new process around it. Is that correct?

[Antonio Utano]

That's correct.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

I understand that whenever contracts are issued, there are layers of approvals, I imagine. It's not that President Ossowski, Mr. Utano or Mr. MacDonald writes a cheque to Botler AI; there are layers of approvals. Can you speak to some of those layers? Were they implemented in this case? Knowing that it was a national emergency, were those still applicable in this case?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I'll be as brief as I can, but I really think it's important that this committee understands this.

As the technical authority on the contracts, which is something that the articles and Botler got wrong.... We are the technical authorities; we are not the contract authorities. We are allowed to sign off that we have the funding and the scope. We are not allowed to sign off or push the button to execute any type of contract, negotiate contracts or do any type of invoicing.

At the CBSA, within us, there was a comptrollership, which is under the CFO area. They are responsible for expediting contracts. If it's above a certain threshold, it goes over to PSPC, and they expedite it. I think that's the genesis of some of the problems that were exposed here. They kept calling us contract authorities, which we are not. We were never in a position to put these contracts in place and make contracting decisions.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You basically state whether the horses can finish the race. Is that correct? You sort of give an opinion on whether the horses in front of you can finish the race.

[Cameron MacDonald]

If we picked the wrong horses, we would be told that we couldn't use them.