Evidence of meeting #84 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay, I understand.
What type of relationship in this process did you have with PSPC? What role did PSPC play in your day-to-day conversations on this particular contract with Botler AI?
5:10 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Perhaps I'll start off and move it to Antonio.
When the pandemic hit, we needed help really badly. We started working with PSPC almost immediately. I wouldn't say that we cut the comptrollership/finance area out, but we just went directly because we knew we needed their help. Within a few months, we had started to work with them on developing a memorandum of understanding whereby we could help pay them to get some access to their resources to help us do contracting.
Maybe from there I'll pass it over to Mr. Utano to finish off, because he would have worked with them for another two years during the process.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Could you also answer whether ultimately PSPC approved those contracts?
5:10 p.m.
Former Executive Director, Border Technologies Innovation Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
All contracts for ArriveCAN were ultimately reviewed and approved by PSPC, going through our CBSA contracting team.
When Mr. MacDonald left, I continued those conversations on those weekly bilaterals. We were meeting with them weekly because the pandemic was continually changing, and the requirements were changing. We wanted to make sure that they were always apprised of the situation and the operational demands. We always sought their advice and their guidance before advancing any sort of procurement or work, so, as a contracting authority, we engaged them all the time.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
You delivered an app that was basically utilized 60 million times by Canadians. It kept Canadians safe and kept things moving across the border, and you delivered it on time and on budget. Is that correct, Mr. Utano?
5:10 p.m.
Former Executive Director, Border Technologies Innovation Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
That's correct.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm sorry, Mr. Kusmierczyk. We'll have plenty of time afterwards.
Before we start with Mr. Genuis, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Barrett asked you whether you could detail some of these issues. You mentioned that they were in your package. Because we will not have them translated in time, would you be able to pull those items out and list them separately in a smaller amount, so we can get them translated faster?
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Mr. Chair, the clerk has been fantastic. If somebody could write down what it is they want from me, I will undertake to get back to the committee as soon as I possibly can.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
GC Strategies clearly got a very good deal here, so getting to the bottom of this matters.
Who made the decision to hire GC Strategies? I understood from your opening statements that you both said Minh Doan was responsible for that decision.
Is my understanding correct?
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes, it's correct.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You are both nodding yes.
Mr. Doan very clearly and explicitly testified before this committee, when he appeared on October 24, that they were investigating and trying to find out who.... To his knowledge, they weren't aware of who....
To be clear, based on your testimony, Mr. Doan was lying when he appeared before the committee.
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
I don't understand, Mr. Chair and honourable members, how they could be investigating who made the decision on ArriveCAN for a year. It's quite clear. If they had asked anybody on our team, they would have said the same thing.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Can you provide us with additional documentation to support your version of events, and are there documents we should request from Mr. Doan that would verify your version of events?
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
No. The only things I haven't provided, which I can provide the committee, are some names. I won't say them here, but I can provide some names of people who can substantiate what I've said here today.
In your packages.... I can pull them out, if you like. Mr. Utano can also pull his out.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. We're at a bit of a disadvantage, because they haven't been distributed yet. I understand the circumstances around translation.
You would undertake to provide to the committee in writing, but not in public, the names of individuals who can verify your version of events.
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
You implied that Mr. Doan wanted to make you the fall guy for what happened here. Would that be a correct interpretation of your version of events—that he made a decision, or that someone somewhere decided you two were going to be the ones made to wear this? Therefore, you would not be supported by the department and would be made to appear responsible for the decision.
Is that your version of events?
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes, Mr. Chair.
I felt incredibly threatened during a phone call with Minh Doan on October 28. I talked to my old supervisor, then my boss, on the Monday and Tuesday morning following that.
I think Mr. Utano can tell you that he had a very similar experience with Mr. Doan as well.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You also referred to a conversation that was relayed to you—maybe it was the same one—in which it was reported that Minister Mendicino wanted someone's head on a plate.
Could you explain further why that was? What was that for, and whose head did he want?
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
That was my discussion. That was the day Minh Doan threatened me.
The discussion started off with Minh Doan telling me that within CBSA there was a lot of work going on to prepare for OGGO. This was almost a year ago. I believe Mr. Mendicino was not happy. Mr. Mendicino wasn't there when ArriveCAN kicked off and when all of this was going on, but there was a lot of news about ArriveCAN.
Minh was worried that either he or Jonathan Moor was going to get fired, so he was talking about somebody's head on a platter. He said that, because Jonathan Moor had made a whole bunch of mistakes from an accounting perspective about how much ArriveCAN cost, it could go his way, or it could go Mr. Doan's way, because Mr. Doan was the CIO at the time. Then he turned.... We were on the phone, but he stopped the conversation and said, “You know, Cam, if I have to, I'm going to tell the committee that it was you.” He offered me the opportunity to say it was Mr. Utano, or to tell Mr. Doan it was Utano and me, to which I said, “If you do that, I will have to respond,” and we ended the conversation.
That night is the night I wrote him the notes. I stayed up until about three o'clock in the morning trying to figure out how to find some way to meet in the middle. That's why the notes were written exactly that way—so Mr. Doan could come to this committee and present without having—
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You're referring to the email you sent. I was going to ask you about that.
Essentially, you were trying to be honest. What you're telling us is that you were trying to be honest but also avoid giving the direct answer you gave the committee today.
5:15 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
I was trying to give him something that he could work with. He told me that he had never been to committee before. I believe his first appearance was two weeks ago. He was very nervous about it, and I tried to give him some help.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Well, no wonder....
The implication of what you're saying is that he made the choice to hire GC Strategies and had some reason for doing so, and also that he came and told the committee that he didn't make the decision and didn't know who made the decision.
Essentially, you're telling us that someone's head was going to be on a plate because somebody got rich, somebody benefited from this. Someone's head was going to be on a plate, and he wanted it to be yours and not his.